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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Can any teacher teach in KSA? |
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Is KSA the kind of country where any good teacher, and by good I mean friendly, understanding, educated, and resourceful manage to work? There are so many things to take into consideration that can get in the way of doing a good job. To name a few there is the students' wasta affecting their college life, grades and status, as well as the cultural sensitivities means a teacher cant be as open as he or she may want to be. The knowledge to know when to say something and when to keep ones mouth shut seems to escape some teachers, and the inability to cope with their own feelings towards Islam, segregation, the idea that women are oppressed and that they have to "save" them from themselves seems to be pervasive in women's colleges as well. If a teacher simply hates this country, can they really be a good teacher to its inhabitants?
I realize that every country has their problems, and ESL teachers face different issues in different countries, yet I have heard more time than I care to repeat "I hate this country," and "I hate Islam," to be confident that these same teachers can keep their feelings out of the classroom. Is it possible for a normally good teacher to become a bad teacher in Saudi Arabia? |
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Robski
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Middle Europe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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This is very interesting, Sheba. Humm.
You say this: "....... to know when to say something and when to keep ones mouth shut seems to escape some teachers"
Are you working with a bunch of teachers who are so careless? Here, where I am, we have our collective and cathartic moan over a Pepsi Max, get it out, and then go in and do (probably)a reasonably good job of teaching. We chat on Dave's website, we moan over a curry and a coffee, and then go back in, do our thing and get on with the serious business of going to work. What's happening where you are that leads you to think that most people cannot cope with their feelings about Islam? Our chatting and moaning has little to do with 'coping' with Islam; it's coping with life as it is where we are.
You continue: ". . . . segregation, the idea that women are oppressed and that they have to "save" them from themselves"
It is a fact that the men in this country run things, and that women have little or no choice. Some, I'm sure are happy with this. Some, I'm sure, are not but they can do little about it. They don't need to be saved from themselves. Just as I disapproved of South African aparteid, like a lot of people here, I question a system that allows freedom for some and not all.
You also say this: If a teacher simply hates this country, can they really be a good teacher to its inhabitants?
Do you assume most of us just hate it here? We moan and complain as we do anywhere - it's a human condition - and we question - another human condition. We then get up and do the best we can for our students. Well, that's how it is where I work. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Robski wrote: |
This is very interesting, Sheba. Humm.
You say this: "....... to know when to say something and when to keep ones mouth shut seems to escape some teachers"
Are you working with a bunch of teachers who are so careless? Here, where I am, we have our collective and cathartic moan over a Pepsi Max, get it out, and then go in and do (probably)a reasonably good job of teaching. We chat on Dave's website, we moan over a curry and a coffee, and then go back in, do our thing and get on with the serious business of going to work. What's happening where you are that leads you to think that most people cannot cope with their feelings about Islam? Our chatting and moaning has little to do with 'coping' with Islam; it's coping with life as it is where we are. |
Yes, obviously I am, and it has been disappointing to see that it carries over to the classroom and students. This is why I wonder if it affects the teaching abilities of a normally good teacher, when indeed they are so unhappy here.
| Robski wrote: |
You continue: ". . . . segregation, the idea that women are oppressed and that they have to "save" them from themselves"
It is a fact that the men in this country run things, and that women have little or no choice. Some, I'm sure are happy with this. Some, I'm sure, are not but they can do litttle about it. They don't need to be saved from themselves. Just as I disapproved of South African aparteid, like a lot of people here, I question a system that allows freedom for some and not all. |
Yes I question it too, but I don�t think that I need to "save" the students from anything, actually they are better off in many respects that women in other countries are. Women face issues in every nation, under every religion, and have had to emancipate themselves by themselves and of their own volition. I don�t teach thinking I can or should encourage them to do that. A teacher's job should not be civil change, although that may be, and certainly has been a byproduct of a good education. I don�t think ESL is necessarily that medium however.
| Robski wrote: |
You also say this: If a teacher simply hates this country, can they really be a good teacher to its inhabitants?
Do you assume most of us jsut hate it here? We moan and complain as we do anywhere - it's a human condition - and we question - another human condition. We then get up and do the best we can for our students. Well, that's how it is where I work. |
Don�t put words into my mouth, I moan and complain too, mainly about others moans and complaints. I don�t assume that everybody hates it here, I think many do, and I think they usually end up leaving sooner than others. I think many teachers do what they "think" is the best for their students, I just have to wonder if what they assume to be "the best" can really be that when they are so unhappy and in some cases hateful towards their environment. If you are hateful towards the relatives of your spouse, for example, can you give him or her "your best?" Is there a psychological barrier that almost dehumanizes the target into something less than you, less than a human, when you hate their nation, country, laws, etc? This is the basis of my question; can a teacher who is normally "good" be "bad" in Saudi Arabia because of the country's unique situation combined with the feelings arise in foriegners because of it. Can all of that be separated when in the classroom so easily? |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Queen of Epithets wrote: |
| ...because of the country's unique situation combined with the feelings arise in foriegners because of it. Can all of that be separated when in the classroom so easily? |
For me the answer is a definite YES. I treat my shebab with as much respect as I would anyone, anywhere else in the world. Maybe I'm self-deluded, but I don't think my general dissatisfaction with life here is reflected in the classroom. If anything, it's one of my rare opportunites to have a bit of fun (the Saudi forum is another!) in this barren land.
I wouldn't say I "hate" KSA. I just think it's the worst country in the world for me, Van Boozen. And I certainly don't hate Islam or Muslims. That's just simplistic and ignorant.
In my school all the teachers (bigots included) know what we can and cannot say in class. Believe me, the only conversion we're interested in is riyals to $, �, �, etc. We couldn't care less about converting our students to anything.
I was a dud teacher before I came to Saudi so I can't answer the 'good-becoming-bad' part of your question. I couldn't get any worse than I already was! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| It is a fact that the men in this country run things |
So, tell me this. In your country, is the head of state a woman, and are most top politicians, judges, and business leaders also women? And no, by 'your country' (whatever that may be) I am not referring to "Planet Bloke" (whatever that may be).
| Quote: |
| like a lot of people here, I question a system that allows freedom for some and not all. |
And like a lot of people on this board, you've probably had little or no meaningful contact with the people you claim to pity so much. Of course, the 'system' in this country allows few institutionalised 'freedoms' for any of its inhabitants, male or female. Certainly, things are worse for women, at least when it comes to legal rights, or lack thereof. But to act as though this is Seff Efrikeh, where one group of people enjoys full civil and political rights, while others were systematically denied access to those same rights, is a misreading of the situation here. As I've said, women are definately disadvantaged in many important respects, but in other ways they are very pampered and protected. Certainly that is the way most Saudi women seem to see it. However, since you've probably never spoken to any of these women, you won't be aware of that.
In any case, the exact situation of women here is not the issue. What is at issue is the way in which many female teachers seem to believe that they are shining examples of liberated womanhood, and that the poor benighted Saudi women in their abayas (and gleaming Mercedes) will want nothing better than to listen gratefully to the pears of wisdom which fall from the white woman's table. Let me - as someone who has had considerable contact with Saudi women - assure you that, acutely aware though these women are of the shortcomings of their own society, they most certainly do not want to be lectured on this by some bitter woman who had to run to a faraway country she despises in order to pay the bills. Mmmmm, I want that life.... |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Can any teacher teach in KSA? |
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| Queen of Sheba wrote: |
Is KSA the kind of country where any good teacher, and by good I mean friendly, understanding, educated, and resourceful manage to work?
���If a teacher simply hates this country, can they really be a good teacher to its inhabitants? |
I think Yes, with a condition that he satisfies your above definition of a �good� teacher - if he is friendly, understanding, educated, and resourceful manage to work - then he is a good teacher to its inhabitant, regardless of his views (hate/not hate) the hosting country!
| Q. o. Sheba wrote: |
| ...Is it possible for a normally good teacher to become a bad teacher in Saudi Arabia? |
NO, as in any country, as far as he still academically and mentally fit. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I think Yes, with a condition that he satisfies your above definition of a �good� teacher - if he is friendly, understanding, educated, and resourceful manage to work - then he is a good teacher to its inhabitant, regardless of his views (hate/not hate) the hosting country! |
Again, Abba, you fail to understand what is being discussed. I think the OP was discussing the (all too familiar) scenario of a teacher who has nothing but contempt for Saudi Arabia and its people, and is resentful about being in the country at all. She seemed to be asking if it is really possible for such a person not to bring all their baggage into the classroom with them, thereby negatively affecting their ability to be a 'good teacher'.
Personally I think it depends. I do know of some people who have a very patronising attitude towards Saudi Arabia and its people, yet somehow they manage to maintain a professional and respectful attitude towards their students. Others, however, are simply unable and/or unwilling to make a distinction between their personal feelings and their professional lives. Such people, whether by accident or design, invariably end up alienating their students through their arrogance and insensitivity. So no, such people certainly cannot be 'good teachers' in KSA, however top notch their qualifications may be, and however well they might function in another environment. |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| The thing is we don't blame our students (or any individual Saudi) for the 'state' of the country. That would be a huge, absurd leap. I certainly don't blame myself for the ills of my homeland. |
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ubaid221
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Well....I believe as an ESL/EFL teacher one should not dilute politics with English teaching. If you have problems with the state of things in a country and oppression of women, then by all means join Amnesty International or an NGO group.
Just do your job and keep it shut. That's my stance. I do sometimes feel that certain issues upset me where I am teaching, but who the hell am I to interferer. Just take it as it comes. It might affect you psychologically, but trying to work around issues that concern you are all part of being a GOOD and EXPERIANCED teacher. |
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ubaid221
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| ubaid221 wrote: |
Well....I believe as an ESL/EFL teacher one should not dilute politics with English teaching. If you have problems with the state of things in a country and oppression of women, then by all means join Amnesty International or an NGO group.
Just do your job and keep it shut. That's my stance. I do sometimes feel that certain issues upset me where I am teaching, but who the hell am I to interferer. Just take it as it comes. It might affect you psychologically, but trying to work around issues that concern you are all part of being a GOOD and EXPERIANCED teacher. |
And by the way...whoever says that women are oppressed in Saudi or any other Muslim state is extremely ignorant. Rather women are oppressed in the western states. Giving the right to vote or anything like that doesn�t make women �free.� Women are not oppressed. You can�t change a religion or culture. You have to learn to be flexible and understanding. I am sure Islam teaches equality and justice.
A word of advice....DONT STUDY MUSLIMS, BUT STUDY ISLAM. |
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Robski
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Middle Europe
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Dear Cleopatra
You say this: So, tell me this. In your country, is the head of state a woman, and are most top politicians, judges, and business leaders also women?
Actually, the head of state is a woman. My country has also had a female Prime Minister, head of MI5 and many other very notable positions have been taken by women. We also see a Chancelor in Germany, Secretary of State in the US, and possibly soon a President in France. There's been a female PM in Canada, Norway..... Even though you are right in saying MOST are men, there are no legal-institutionalised restrictions on women rising to these levels. It used to be terrible in my country - agreed - but we have come a long way since WW1. And we've done this by argument, debate, and women demanding equal rights. Should we keep our mouths shut?
You say this: .... women are definately disadvantaged in many important respects, but in other ways they are very pampered and protected.
What if one is not pampered? In my country if a woman is mistreated by a man, denied basic freedoms etc. there are laws that protect. It's not perfect and it's not easy, of course, and my country can do better, but one can seek legal protection, get divorced, get a job, start life again and there is no shame.
What happens here if a man mistreats a woman? What laws and social conventions are in place to protect women who are not pampered and protected? Tell us all as a lot of us are clearly ignorant here.
You then say this: ..... you've probably never spoken to any of these women....
Yes, your right there! |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Ubaid221 on April 15th
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I need some information/advice from the more experienced folks out there. I have a PGCE with QTLS with subject specialist in ESOL from the University of Wolverhampton (UK). In addition, I have 3 years experience teaching ESOL to children at a primary school and adults in college. I would like to start venturing outside the UK now and explore opportunities somewhere in the world.
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Your postings from today show you've gone from asking to telling in the span of 6 days. It may not be a bad idea to remain at 'home' for a while longer. Man, we've got enough loose cannons over here as it is.
Last edited by bje on Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| A self-quoting loose cannon! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, the head of state is a woman. |
Yes, but only because her father had no male offspring. If your head of state had had five sisters and one brother, that brother would have become head of state, for no other reason than his gender. Hardly a shining model of gender equality, is it?
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| My country has also had a female Prime Minister, head of MI5 and many other very notable positions have been taken by women. |
Boast of yourone female PM (though personally I don't think she's anything to boast about) all you will: you cannot hide the fact that only a small minority of those in powerful position in Britain, or anywhere else, are women.
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| We also see a Chancelor in Germany, Secretary of State in the US, and possibly soon a President in France. There's been a female PM in Canada, Norway..... |
Yes, and there have been female heads of state in Turkey, the Philippines, Pakistan, India, Indonesia and other non "Western" countries too. I do find it interesting that you fail to mention these women.
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| there are no legal-institutionalised restrictions on women rising to these levels. |
Which makes it all the more striking that they so rarely do. Actually, there are surprisingly few legal restrictions on Saudi women attaining top positions such as that of CEO or surgeon, for example, but of course you find very few Saudi women in these jobs. Which just goes to show that 'legal-instituionalised' restrictions are not neccessarily the most important types of restriction.
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| Should we keep our mouths shut? |
Eh? So you're an outspoken advocate for women's rights?
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| What if one is not pampered? In my country if a woman is mistreated by a man, denied basic freedoms etc. there are laws that protect. |
Sure, and I'd be the first to admit that in that respect Britain is way ahead of KSA, or any other Arab country. But you are very naive if you think the legal system in Britain adequately protects women from abuse. But certainly it is getting better.
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| What happens here if a man mistreats a woman? What laws and social conventions are in place to protect women who are not pampered and protected? |
As I've said, there is no doubt that women in KSA are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to legal protection and representation. That is undeniable. And certainly it is true that life here can be quite good for a woman who has the support and protection of her family, which I believe most do. However, you are absolutely right in saying that if a woman is abused by her male relatives, she often has little legal redress. The good thing is that, slowly and belatedly, these issues have at last become the subject of open debate in KSA. There is reason to be optimistic that, with the hard work of Saudi women's rights activists, the legal situation of women here may be improved over the coming years. But there is a long, long way to go.
Last edited by Cleopatra on Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ubaid221
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Your postings from today show you've gone from asking to telling in the span of 6 days. It may not be a bad idea to remain at 'home' for a while longer. Man, we've got enough loose cannons over here as it is.[/quote]
Hey it's a forum...we chat..exchange ideas...forget my posting numbers!! it's irrelavant... |
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