Job Discussion Forums

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Yeah, I know -- sounds like a n00b question, but before I get people throwing my own mantra back at me (using the search button) hear me out.

I came across this website/blog thanks to a link on GenkiEnglish. Richard has a daily diary/Blog where he links to this guy and gives him glowing praises. Personally, I tend to be a little more skeptical when someone makes such a grand claim.

Go ahead and wander over to to http://cubicleescapeartist.com/blog/?p=20 and read what this guy has to say, and provide your feedback here. You'll also notice that I added a comment to his Blog, which is where I currently stand on the issue.

EDIT:

Since my comment to him is still "awaiting moderation" and I don't know if this fellow allows dissenting viewpoints on his Blog, I'll reprint what I wrote him here...

canuck · Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 1921 Location: Japan

It depends on the individual....it would be very tough...about the same odds as a 21 year old university student, stepping into their first teaching job, without any previous experience, and earning 420,000 yen a month.

I know a guy, just an average guy. He, by his own admission, isn't gifted at learning languages.

He went to school for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, Monday through Friday, for one year. He worked afterwards at an eikaiwa. He passed the level 2 JLPT without too much trouble and can speak and read Japanese fairly well. This is a realistic goal for others to follow.

furiousmilksheikali · Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:42 am Post subject:

Your post reminds me of the gauntlet you and a few other posters threw down a few months ago regarding the Heisig Method. How is that going?

There was a story about one of my philosophy teachers at university who found the English translation of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason so difficult to understand that he took up German and learnt the language in under six weeks. German doesn't sound as challenging as Japanese but Transcendental Idealism is pretty tricky in any language; perhaps it would require more than simple fluency to understand.

furiousmilksheikali · Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:43 am Post subject:

6810 · Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 309

I haven't voted.

But what I am interested in is the definition of fluent.

Does "fluency" cover literacy? Because spoken and written language differ significantly. I mean it is one thing to be verbally fluent, but how about literacy "fluent"?

Frankly, although there are exceptional language learners out there and although Ferriss' principles seem ok in theory - I still get stuck on his definition of "having learned" a language.

It is one thing to memorise an extensive vocabulary based on frequency tables but it is another thing entirely to be able to use that language in a communicative setting.

I mean, has the author actually used, for sustained periods of time in the relevant contexts his acquired languages?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.

Meanwhile, Canuck's anecdote holds more water in my opinion.

My Japanese ability, written and spoken, skyrocketed once I committed to two hour lessons every day covering kanji, vocab, grammar and reading practice. This was in addition to using Japanese everyday at home and at work. But the breakthrough was in consistent effort.

I went from level 3 (JPLT) to Level 2 in about 4 months.

Having done that, since I want full literacy, now I realise how at the very tip of the ice berg I am here - this is where the real challenge begins.

canuck · Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 1921 Location: Japan

6810 · Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 309

You see, that sounds reasonable to me. About the amount of time you'd expect.

bearcat · Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 367

What defines fluency?

Things to consider:

Everyday use of the language

Academic use of the language

Fluency in the culture of the language (pragmatics/socio-linguistics... just because you know the words, does it really mean that you know all the ways to use them effectively, efficiently, and with the same degree of sophisitication in most situations and variables of a typical native speaker within the culture of that language?)

If I take into account two thirds or more of the above, I am 100% skeptical that a person is "fluent" in a living language by 6 months. Could someone become culturally fluent in 6 months of living in that culture? If that is pretty far fetched then how could someone make the claim that they could learn the language of a culture to the point of fluency within that same period of time. It just seems virtually impossible.

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

JimDunlop2 · Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Maybe I'm blind, or the web site is too cluttered to show me what you read, Jim, but all I can see is that the guy says:

"To understand 85% of a language and become conversational [sic] fluent may require 6 months of applied learning."
Just what the heck does the underlined part mean? Give me some more exact definitions of that, ok? He doesn't. He just uses pychobabble to tell you in Amway-speak that he has done something others can't. No proof at all, nor any description of how he did it. Nice smoke and mirrors to provide a list of the most common words in English, though. Makes him look academic, doesn't it? And, do you see any references on this guy's page? No. Nice disclaimer, though, about "may require". Yeah, and it may require far more. Read on...

"As a personal example, I used martial arts instructional manuals to compete effectively in judo while a student in Japan. My primary objective was to learn technique and apply it in tournaments, with language skill development as a far subordinate priority; as a result, I had motive to learn the captions of the step-by-step diagrams in each book. Although one might assume that the cross-over of material to other subject matter would be minimal, the grammar is, in fact, identical to nearly all other written and spoken dialogues. The vocabulary may be highly specialized, but I eclipsed the grammatical ability of 4 and 5-year students of Japanese within 2 months of studying and applying sports-specific instruction manuals. The specialization of my vocabulary didn�t present a single problem in communication, it is important to note, as I was spending 80% of my free time training with people who also spoke with the highly specialized vocabulary unique to sports training and athletic development."
BOLD 1: He actually learned captions of diagrams in a martial arts manual? Gee, is that conversational fluency? Not to me.
BOLD 2: The grammar in captions had better be similar if not identical to grammar in regular language. What's the biggie here?
BOLD 3: Who are these 4- and 5-year students, and what does "eclipse" mean? I suppose it means they didn't learn those captions. Again, B.S. here making you believe he pulled off a miracle.

Oh, and did you notice we're down from 6 months to only 2 now?

"How to Learn Any Language in 3 Months: Part 1

Language learning, or developing practical fluency in a target language, need not be complicated, or worse yet, amorphous. Principles of cognitive neuroscience and time management can be incorporated to provide a simple set of discrete steps that lead to fluent ability in 1-3 months.

I have used the detailed approaches, developed over 4 years of East Asian Studies language acquisition research at Princeton University, to learn Japanese (spoken and written) in 6 months, Mandarin Chinese in 3 months, and Italian in 1 month. This decrease in time is reflective of the refinement of learning technique and not indicative of Chinese being twice as easy as Japanese, for example."
Oh, now it's 1-3 months, not 6 or 2. This guy is all over the playing field.

BOLD 1: References, please, to those principles. And, a list of those steps would be nice.
BOLD 2: At least Princeton U has an East Asian Studies department, but is there any foundation to what he writes about those detailed approaches he studied there?

The closest I have heard of anyone jumping in cold and learning a lot of the language was Tony Laszlo (Japan Times article, Feb. 12, 2000). Title: Learn Japanese in 6 months -- the Laszlo way. According to the article, he arrived in Japan in 1985 "with no experience in Japanese or other character-based language, made the bulk of his linguistic progress in under six months." No tutors, no weekly kaiwa classes, no tapes, no self-banishment to the inaka. With only a light work schedule (not explained how he managed that and survive), he set himself a schedule to learn 2000 kanji (yes, WRITTEN Japanese before spoken). Ok, so that must mean he "learned Japanese" when all he did was learn 2000 kanji (meanings only, not pronunciation), but I have not followed up on his method. "...Laszlo says he got his conversation practice by being gregarious -- and without paying a dime...'I remember getting on the Yamanote line and going around and around with my books on my lap...and looking at all the stations..." Google the Laszlo method and tell me more, but this is the closest I've heard and it's still not being fully fluent conversationally in 6 months.

Apsara · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 2142 Location: Tokyo, Japan

No way. Spoken Japanese in a year perhaps if you really apply yourself and have a talent for languages, but written- no way. Even with a year of study and practice of spoken Japanese I would expect the person's vocab to be limited in quite a few areas.

6810 · Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 309

jademonkey · Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 180

Squire22 · Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Shizuoka, Japan

Fluent in six months? I'd be happy if I was fluent in six years! Maybe I'm setting my targets too low though.

I took level 4 of the JLPT in my first year(and was very happy at passing it), this year I'm going to try level 3. I actually have a question for people, have any of you taken a level a year? Gone from Level 4 to Level 1 in four years and passed them all? If I could cut 6 years into 4 so that my Japanese was "sufficient for daily life" then I'd be pleased as punch.

Regards