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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: Failing Senior Students |
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Well, I have finally finished grading exams from a very hot place. 
Students were asked to write answers to 5 questions in a paragraph or essay format. The questions required them to have read about 100 pages of their writing textbook (I brought one from the US, it is not horrible, but still boring). They were also given 2 passages to edit. In total there were a possibility of 110 points, of which I just counted 100. The highest score was a 96 (so the exam was possible to do well on).
Out of my 116 students who took the exam, 65 failed. I am not sure how many of them will go to to actually fail my class. I still need to consider things like attendance. But all semester my students had a bad attitude. They deserve to fail. I was given the blessing of the department to fail them. I am sure I will also be given the blessing to grade their exams a second time. I am sure I will be asked not to fail students after they take the second exam.... they said maybe they would make students come back in the summer to retake the exam. We will see how well it floats after the actual numbers are in.
So I wonder, what is the largest number of students you successfully were allowed to fail in any class? |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I am not sure how many of them will go to to actually fail my class. I still need to consider things like attendance. |
Did you not make this determination at the beginning of the semester? Prepare a syllabus?
Generally, attendance and class participation is 10% of a grade (but can certainly be more for an "oral" English class). A final exam is often upwards to 30% of their final grade and then various assignments, mid-term, etc. constitutes the remaining percentage.
I'm not picking on Yu, really I'm not, but I'm reading a few threads lately (and comments thereafter) about how horrible the papers are in writing classes. So, I have to wonder: how many of you are trained English writing teachers? How many are just following a textbook? How many go through the step-by-step process of writing a paper? Research, index cards, citing resources, outlines, intro, body, conclusion, etc.?? How many are assuming a previous teacher (Chinese or foreign) should have taught them basics and by the level they are at now should know all there is to know about writing a proper paper? How many (who've studied Chinese) could write a proper Chinese paper at your current skills level?
I'm not defending some of these lazy-assed students that I've read about here and that I've had the "pleasure" of teaching in my past, but I'm just offering out the opinion that what we take for granted when it comes to abilities in our home country . . . maybe we shouldn't here. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with Kevin on a lot there . I fail hardly any students as long as they have made an effort. The system is to blame for a lot of my students problems . It's ridiculous that the University allow foreigners to grade students fullstop . I know for sure none of the teachers here are trained in writing /creating examination papers - a specialised skill that in my circumstances(and I would guess many others in China) is pretty much impossible to do anyway . It would take me half the semester to administer a spoken exam if it was to be even considered serious . |
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Girl Scout
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
Location: Inbetween worlds
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| I failed 8-10% of my seniors last year. However, all of my students failed because they did not turn in all their assignments. If my students can hand in an understandable peice of writing that follows the assignment, the lowest I would give them is a 60. I have actually only failed one student based on her inability to write. |
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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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So exams here are worth 60%. That part of my grading is finished.
The homework and attendance is jotted down on various slips of paper and I still need to enter it in the computer.... I just have not done that yet.
| Quote: |
| I'm not picking on Yu, really I'm not, but I'm reading a few threads lately (and comments thereafter) about how horrible the papers are in writing classes. So, I have to wonder: how many of you are trained English writing teachers? How many are just following a textbook? How many go through the step-by-step process of writing a paper? Research, index cards, citing resources, outlines, intro, body, conclusion, etc.?? How many are assuming a previous teacher (Chinese or foreign) should have taught them basics and by the level they are at now should know all there is to know about writing a proper paper? How many (who've studied Chinese) could write a proper Chinese paper at your current skills level? |
Kev, good questions. Really good questions. Questions every writing teacher in China should be asking.
Am I a trained writing teacher? I am, but not for the level of writing that I am currently teaching as I am teaching senior english major students at a university. My previous experience has all been more at the developmental level where I am more concerned with writing paragraphs and essays in my classes, now, my students are writing 25+ page research papers and are more concerned with finding jobs and having fun then they are with actually improving their writing.
Following a textbook? More or less and not really. I selected a textbook on writing research papers after ordering several from Amazon and selecting the best one. I also selected a book that taught critical thinking skills. I followed many of the basic themes of the book (but because I read it and agreed with what the author said). I did not assign enough writing assignments to the students because I found the assignments given last year unhelpful. The textbook I use follows a step by step guide to writing a resarch paper. I supplemented it with extra attention to locating library sources and plagiarism avoidance.
Research, index cards, citing resources, outlines, intro, body, conclusion, etc. Yes. BUT I HATE INDEX CARDS, so while I mention this option to students I gave them the assignement of doing an annotated bibilography and essay instead.
How many are assuming a previous teacher (Chinese or foreign) should have taught them basics and by the level they are at now should know all there is to know about writing a proper paper?
Sadly, I have assumed they as SENIOR ENGLISH MAJOR UNIVERSITY students that their teachers have taught them the basics. After looking at their exams, I realize they have never been taught how to tackle essay exams. WOW! I also know they are incerdible reluctant to do peer editing, and their actual editing skills suck. I really have assumed too much with my job. If I go back I would start with the basics--beginning from a paragraph and ending with a research paper where I teach them to do peer editing through the process. It is really hard to help students revise a 25+ page paper in a meaningful way when I have 120 of them to read. It is hard to make comments that are useful to that many students. For essays, I can suck it up. But research papers are really hard.
How many (who've studied Chinese) could write a proper Chinese paper at your current skills level? No. But I am sure if I studied Chinese for 12 years and majored in in uni, that I would be able to do this. I am aware of some of the differences in paper development between Chinese and English and I try to read as many articles as I can find that are published in English that address difficulties of Chinese students and writing English.
As to the efforts of my students---They were asked to read 100 pages of their text. The exam required them to write 5 medium legnth responses (250+ words for some questions about 150 for some others). The correct anwers reqired knowledge from the text and reflections on their own writing. The second part was error correction of a passage. It was difficult. There was an optional editing passage for up to an additional 10 points. Students were directly told orally in class and in the instructions that they were to write essays. In class they were reminded that essays had introducation, thesis statements, and conclusions. We have done some editing practice during the semester, and students were given a handout that if they completed, they would have fewer problems with sentence structure. I tried to teach them a systematic way to edit passages. With adequate preparation--- actually reading the textbook, students would have done ok. They were given a great handout that tells several ways to revise a paper and it told them many fresh techniques. Many of them asked if they needed to read it because it was 30 pages long and it would take a long time. I said yes (they are senior English majors, 30 pages should not present too much of a problem--plus as the text is written by the same author as they textbook, many ideas are the same---so had they read either text they should have been ok).
But seriously, the idea of process writing is completely foreign to students. The idea of editing for content, structure, information, purpose, and meaning is completely foreign to the students. They are poorly trained to edit for language. AND THAT IS ALL. They do not see the value in peer review. There is much to teach them. BUT they need to be taught it before they are senior students.
I am contemplating my job situation next year because I want to teach these students these things. I have realized the problems slowly. The first year, I could not get past the ununified structure of every paper, so I went to work at reforming formats of papers. This year I realized students could not think. I thought I would figure out how to teach them to think. I was not successful in this endevour as I am not trained how to teach people how to think. And it is difficult to teach people who dont want to think to actually think. Next year, I think I would start to the beginning of the writing process. Beginning with sentences and working through paragraphs and essays to teach students sound structure and good writing skills. I can do that. I honestly believed they should be way beyond that. BUT that other job offer is tempting. |
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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
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So I have finished my calculations, and 30 out of 120 students failed my class.
They are senior students and my class is the last one they needed to graduate.
I dont know what is going to happen to them.
They were warned.
They did not take me seriously. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
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[quote="sheeba"]I agree with Kevin on a lot there . I fail hardly any students as long as they have made an effort. The system is to blame for a lot of my students problems . It's ridiculous that the University allow foreigners to grade students fullstop . I know for sure none of the teachers here are trained in writing /creating examination papers - a specialisquote]
I think you have a lot in common with our students: it's always someone or something ELSE that's to blame, never me, the student!
Yes, the "system" is to blame, basically, but the students are PART of this system, and they abuse it to their advantage.
And why shouldn't a FT be allowed to decide whether a Chinese English student fails or passes exams? Why should such decisions be made by CHinese???
We discussed an interesting topic here a while back: students' autonomy!
Our students lack autonomy, and that is reflected in their insouciance towards any relevant objective in teaching English. IT's nothing but an academic exercise for many of them, and even at that, it's not a rigorous exercise. It's make-believe study just as degrees are worthless and had better be bought on the black market! |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Roger .
I am looking from my perspective of things and I guess perhaps I'm quite lucky in that most of my students do want to improve their English . I realise that my teaching really makes a difference to how students progress in my class . The problem I have is of levels . With so many different levels in one class there is no way that one can devise a suitable curriculum for a term . This in turn results in the end of term exam really being worth nothing . I could test proficiency in English but to judge improvement over a semester is a bit harsh when dealing with students that have been put in mixed ability classes . This is a fault of the system and I blame that system . Even the description of my course says 'To cater for students from different backgrounds and levels' - It does not work . |
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Mydnight
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 2892
Location: Guangdong, Dongguan
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Worked in a UNI once and not interested in doing that again. I guess it was the sheer disappointment that turned me off. I thought that they would act differently from HS students and have a better level of English since they were Seniors (grade 3/4 whatever).
I failed a few out of each class that never showed up and I don't regret it at all. I even told them to tell those kids to write me a 1 page paper on why they were always absent to give them "another chance" which I basically knew it was way beyond their abilities.
One girl I gave a 0 mark to. She missed like 95 percent of the classes. It caused some kind of uproar or something because there was nobody in the history of the UNI that got that low a grade.
I mean, my class was freaking so easy. If they showed up and just TRIED, they could get a decent grade. Or at least a passing one. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
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I think you hit a point there Mydnight . I really need to move on from this Uni gig.
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I thought that they would act differently from HS students and have a better level of English since they were Seniors (grade 3/4 whatever).
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So who is worth teaching in China?I'm thinking the young ones ? Who do you teach now ? |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: |
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So who is worth teaching in China?I'm thinking the young ones ? Who do you teach now ?
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Teach those who want to leave China for work/study. Motivation can sometimes make their eyes glow, quite unlike the dead stares from those roused from bed at 7:20 and forced to join the Grand March of Lifeless Routine from classroom, to smoke in the can, and then back to classroom again.
However, there are those who want to leave China yet have not come to understand the benefits of speaking the official language of the country in which they wish to reside. For them, being dim is a condition no TESLer can undo. |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: none |
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I usually agree with Shan-Shan's posts, but I was mortified when I saw the following sentence - "Teach those who want to leave China for work/study." Words that would be beeped out on the forum were the only ones that I could think of.
Then I read Shan-Shan's second paragraph, where the students that I have taught for years were described. If I might ammend a sentence, I would say, 'However, there are those who want to study abroad who have not come to understand the benefits of knowing the language that they will be taught in.' |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I am ready to fail at least 90% of my 200 writing class students. |
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mondrian
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 658
Location: "was that beautiful coastal city in the NE of China"
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mydnight wrote: |
I mean, my class was freaking so easy. If they showed up and just TRIED, they could get a decent grade. Or at least a passing one. |
Yes, that is my operational philosophy too. If they attend then they will pass. Because it is then my responsibility to see that they do enough work to progress throughout the semester. Even the poorest student will gain some benefit.
If they dont attend without due cause, then I can't "work on them". So they will fail.
I tell them this at the beginning of the semester.
I passed over 500 graduate students last semester and failed none.
The technically "competent" students got the high marks.
ALL grading is relevant to the aims of the course - they are not and never will be English L1 speakers and writers. |
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laodeng
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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I, too, have had senior-English-major writing classes. I finally learned to conserve my stomach lining by not agitating myself. Everyone passes. And if I don't pass them, then someone in the many levels above me will.
Does anyone seriously think it matters? The ones who want to learn will learn.
And I speak as one with degrees in English and in pedagogy, and with considerable experience in the home country in both secondary and university-level teaching. No backpacker here. |
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