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Arab Strap

Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 246 Location: under your bed
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: A little light reading |
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I wonder if any of our esteemed posters would like to comment on the following:
While on a recent visit to Jarir bookshop in Al Khobar I noticed copies of Mein Kampf, Arabic translation, for sale on the 'discount stand' no less.
I've also noticed a certain admiration for the 'Little Corporal' amongst our student body............although I doubt very much that any of them have tried to tackle his weighty tome.
When the old 'Hitler good strong man teacher' comes up, or, as on one occasion I find a swastika scribbled on the board, I find telling them that members of my family died fighting the Nazis usually shuts them up................for a while.
What next David Irving book signing sessions? |
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trapezius

Joined: 13 Aug 2006 Posts: 1670 Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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As with any other peoples around the world, "my enemy's enemy is my friend", hold for Saudi people too.
Might be immature, irresponsible, selfish, and wrong, but hey, that's how the majority of humans on this planet are.
If the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict existed as it does, but Hitler was someone who had killed millions of South Americns, then Hitler would be a no-name for them.
Makes sense, but doesn't mean it can be excused or is "right".
Some of my Saudi students were like "Saddam yes, he good man", and when I asked why they thought that even though I knew the reason, they said it is because he defied the Americans.
To which, I felt like responding, but didnt: "You spoilt little children are too young remember that Saddam attacked your country and was threatening to burn it all except for Makkah and Madinah." And what about the fact that he killed Kuwaitis?
Apparently all that is forgotten just because he stood up to America.
Life goes on. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Zionists have been exploiting the Holocaust to justify their exploitation of the Palestinians and expropriation of their land for over forty years. It is therefore not surprising that Arabs tend to be suspicious of the claims and, as they had nothing to do with Hitler, act on the enemy of my enemy's principle.
That said, the Saudis would do themselves a few favours if they would tear up the copies of "The Protocols of Zion", which has long been known to be a Tsarist forgery, but which is still sold by WAMY as proof of Judaic treachery. Like the farcical "Holocaust conference" called by Amadijneed in Iran, peddling obvious falsities does little to further a good cause.
If you want to read a decent description of the mixed feelings Hitler caused in the Arab world then read the 'Cairo Trilogy' by Mahfouz.
Incidentally the same thing was seen in India with the Japanese. The hero of the Indian Independence movement, Bose, joined up with the Japanese and prepared a Japanese trained army to liberate India. The British had won round most of the Congress Party by promising independence as long as they stayed quiet, so Bose had only minority support, but he is still considered an anti-colonial hero by most Indians. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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To which, I felt like responding, but didnt: "You spoilt little children are too young remember that Saddam attacked your country and was threatening to burn it all except for Makkah and Madinah." |
He didn't actually. In fact it was the Saudis who invaded Iraq, though it can't be said that they overshadowed the US in the coalition.
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And what about the fact that he killed Kuwaitis? |
Not much love lost between Saudis and Kuwaitis
In fairness most of your students were only three or four at the time of the first Gulf War, and it was viewed with indifference rather than strong passion on either side. |
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Robski

Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 50 Location: Middle Europe
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: |
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If Hitler is such as popular guy here ask you students why the highways in this country are rubbish? |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: |
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While on a recent visit to Jarir bookshop in Al Khobar I noticed copies of Mein Kampf, Arabic translation, for sale on the 'discount stand' no less. |
Great that you're one of the few ESL-ers here who can read Arabic script. Of course, the mere fact that such a book is on sale does not neccessarily mean it is highly regarded, and the fact that it was on the discount shelf would indicate that it is not exactly selling like hot cakes.
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When the old 'Hitler good strong man teacher' comes up, or, as on one occasion I find a swastika scribbled on the board, I find telling them that members of my family died fighting the Nazis usually shuts them up................for a while. |
I actually think that much of the Saudi 'admiration' - such as it is - for Hitler is mainly connected with ignorance rather than with any real approval of the man or his regime. In the first place,you cannot expect teenagers in a Middle Eastern country to have the same knowledge about - or interest in- a European leader as someone like you whose family was directly involved in the war - not that most 18 year olds in Britain or the US are terribly well-informed about WWll either, by all accounts. The Saudi "education" system is notoriously poor when it comes to history. I have had students come to me asking if I could give them extra-curricular history lessons as they are embarrassed when their ignorance of world history comes to light when they travel abroad. I try to reassure them by telling them that most "Westerners" have an equally poor grounding in all non"Western" history too.
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If the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict existed as it does, but Hitler was someone who had killed millions of South Americns, then Hitler would be a no-name for them. |
Of course. Just as, had Hitler's victims been Arabs rather than Europeans, he would be a person of no importance to most "Westerners" who get all indignant about the fact that 18 year old Saudis don't neccessarily share their view that Hitler was the greatest monster of all time. While I totally agree that Saudis need to have a broader perspective on world history - as do we all - I am less convinced of the idea that foreigners have some divine right to impose their own perspectives and 'victim hierarchy' on Arab teenagers.
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Zionists have been exploiting the Holocaust to justify their exploitation of the Palestinians and expropriation of their land for over forty years. It is therefore not surprising that Arabs tend to be suspicious of the claims and, as they had nothing to do with Hitler, act on the enemy of my enemy's principle. |
Absolutely correct. While it may in some respects be understandable, of course it is not right - either from a moral or a practical perspective - that far too many Arabs effectively deny or trivialise the Holocaust. As I've said, a lot of this has to do with sheer ignorance, but much also has to do with the fact that the Zionist establishment, especially in the US, has 'sacralised' the Holocaust and made it an area above (or beneath) the normal realm of historical enquiry. They have, of course, also shamefully exploited it as a pretext to make the Jewish state above criticism, and have largely succeeded in this goal. The same people who get all hysterical about "Holocaust denial" are also the ones who deny that a grave wrong was ever done to the Palestinian people, or indeed, that such a people even exists.
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That said, the Saudis would do themselves a few favours if they would tear up the copies of "The Protocols of Zion", which has long been known to be a Tsarist forgery, but which is still sold by WAMY as proof of Judaic treachery. |
This is true. Unfortunately, many supporters of the Palestinian struggle all too often debase and delegitimise their cause by allowing themselves to be easy targets for the "anti-Semitism" witch hunters in the US and elsewhere. That said, it's not as though the Zionists are above resorting to deception, shoddy scholarship and plain lies in support of their own cause. We are, after all, talking about the people who not only believed, but wholeheartedly endorsed, the outright fraud peddled by Zionist hucksters like Daniel Goldhagen, Benjamin Wilkomorski and, most notriously of all, Joan Peters.
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Saddam attacked your country |
Aren't you missing a bit of context here? Saddam only fired missiles at KSA after that country had agreed to host US troops as a base from which to attack Iraq. The "evidence" that Saddam had previously had any designs on KSA is, shall we say, somewhat less than conclusive and many believe it was exaggerated (if not fabricated) by the US in order to gain Saudi support for their war on Iraq.
In any case, I've found that most Saudis have highly ambiguous views on Saddam. I don't know about your students, but mine have vivid childhood memories of the first Gulf war. They are also aware of Saddam's brutalities, but at the same time do, as you say, grudgingly admire him as the one Arab leader who stood up to the US. That such a man could be admired at all is a measure of how desperate things have become in the Arab world. Of course, many Arabs were so disgusted by the manner of Saddam's execution - and his apparant, belated dignity - that they could not help but feel a certain sympathy for him. But I have not met a single Saudi who would claim to be a wholehearted fan of Saddam. |
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Arab Strap

Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 246 Location: under your bed
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Great that you're one of the few ESL-ers here who can read Arabic script. |
Are you being sarcastic here? The title was also written in 'Latin' script as:
MIEN KAMPF
And there was a nice wee picture of Der Fuehrer and a swastika just in case of any confusion.
It was sitting next to a book, called in English 'No to Israel' |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Are you being sarcastic here? |
Well, you did say that the book was in "Arabic translation" but, yes, I suppose it was too much of me to expect that a language teacher would make a stab at understanding the local script.
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It was sitting next to a book, called in English 'No to Israel' |
So are you going to lecture your students about how some of your best friends are Zionists, and pompously demand that they agree with this too? |
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huntjuliehunt
Joined: 09 May 2007 Posts: 87
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Can anyone get rid of Cleopatra? Her annoying, uptight posts, keep spoiling these threads. |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Forgive me, resident gender-bender, but in between hunting down Riyadh's best vegetarian restaurant and finding appropriate discussion topics for you, I do need a little light relief. I'd be grateful if your hogwan-ness would be gracious enough to permit me that.
May I also take this opportunity to thank you for yet another insightful, relevant and cogent post? Of course, it is no more than we would expect from someone with so profound a knowledge of Saudi Arabian students as you have shown yourself to possess. |
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007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 2684 Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Hilter and Sadam are dead now, and we let history judge them.
Now, what about uncle Sam and his wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, what about millions of people who died under the bombing of uncle Sam�s F15 and 16, aren�t they as well victims of �modern holocaust�? |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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aren�t they as well victims of �modern holocaust�? |
I think the term has been copyrighted and public opprobrium awaits any who dare infringe this law.
But in order to make sure, you might consult MEMRI. |
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007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 2684 Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Cleopatra wrote: |
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aren�t they as well victims of �modern holocaust�? |
I think the term has been copyrighted and public opprobrium awaits any who dare infringe this law.
But in order to make sure, you might consult MEMRI. |
Well, MEMRI says the following:
I QUOTE:
�Or whose truth has been in doubt for sixty years, while today a true Holocaust is occurring from Rafah to Jenin, Nablus, Baghdad, and Nafaj. This is the Holocaust that our nation and our region is experiencing today, and the West does not pay attention to it and doesn't feel the same level of pain that it feels concerning the old Holocaust. When this article was published, the Zionist MEMRI organization in America and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which is also Zionist, translated the article and then disseminated it and sent letters to the American Congress, to the American Embassy in Cairo and to the Egyptian Foreign Ministry, and other places." Rif'at Sayyed Ahmad:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP78204
I QUOTE From MEMRI:
"The Holocaust was carried out with the agreement of the Zionist and the German leaderships. There was a very well-known agreement between the leadership of the World Zionist Organization and Hitler. But there is doubt as to the truth of this story. The Transfer [Agreement]. There is also a book by Farris Glubb, the son of the Irishman John Bagot Glubb, ' The Star of David and the Swastika.' Also, our brother Mahmoud Abbas, 'Abu Mazen,' published a book for which he received a doctorate from the former USSR, about the ties� Let's read the title so as not to make a mistake� ' The Other Face � The Secret Ties Between Nazism and Zionism,' published by Ibn Rushd publications in Amman.�
"
Rif'at Sayyed Ahmad: "They have made them laboratory mice out of these heroic prisoners. This is an example of the modern Holocaust that we are now experiencing. A fresh Holocaust. Where is the West's conscience? I ask where is Anne Marie, the media advisor in the U.S. Embassy, on this issue? Where is Bush himself?
"The annihilation of olive trees� In the last two years half a million olive trees have been annihilated in Palestine. The olive tree is the oldest and deepest-rooted tree in Palestine. Why are they being annihilated? Is this not Nazism? Is this not a modern Holocaust?"
Last edited by 007 on Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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the Zionist MEMRI organization in America and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which is also Zionist, translated the article and then disseminated it and sent letters to the American Congress, to the American Embassy in Cairo and to the Egyptian Foreign Ministry, and other places." |
Of course MEMRI is merely a 'translation organisation', dedicated only to the noble goal of increasing understanding among cultures. They have no political agenda whatsoever. Thanks for confirming that, ABBA. |
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Arab Strap

Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 246 Location: under your bed
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Well, you did say that the book was in "Arabic translation" but, yes, I suppose it was too much of me to expect that a language teacher would make a stab at understanding the local script. |
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So are you going to lecture your students about how some of your best friends are Zionists, and pompously demand that they agree with this too? |
Once again you've completely missed the point and made accusations against someone you have never met and (hopefully) never will meet.
How dare you presume what I demand from my students..............
You spend so much time lording it over everyone on this board that I wonder if you are a teacher at all..............where do you find the time to make all these posts? |
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