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[biffinbridge]

Had a discussion the other day with a highly qualified TEFL guru,(self styled).Basically it was about why we say bread and butter, salt and pepper and fish and chips and so on...(yeah I was bored).Anyhow I said that the word order was simply collocational while he maintained some sort of diatribe about short vowel sounds etc and went into phonetics.Personally I think my mate was talking tosh...but is there any real explanation for this?(Not that a student will ever have to know).

[veiledsentiments]

Much too early in the morning to think about the phonetics of it all. My first thought was how often the first word in a pair will have one syllable and the second has two. You often see that with paired names too - like Tom and Jerry.

Just a thought---

Yes, I realize that fish and chips doesn't fit, but that seems to be explained by the fact that the chips are the side dish.

I always kind of enjoyed these silly conversations that come up with a bunch of bored teachers over lunch or whatever --- Living languages are interesting creatures.

VS

[johnslat]

Which reminds me ( and perhaps this should be a whole other thread - weird signs/notices - supposedly in English - seen overseas ) of a something I saw in Jeddah in the early '80s. A new restaurant opened on one of the main streets there, and they'd obviously spent a lot of money on their signage. Unfortunately, they apparently hadn't spend any on an English dictionary. In BIG BOLD LETTERS their sign proclaimed:

FISH AND SHIPS

Regards,
John

[dyak]

then confused their customers further by asking if they wanted 'sheeps with that'.

[Gordon]

That must have been next to the store in Greece that said "Tourist Chop". I half expected a guillotine to come down as I entered the store.

[Roger]

Some of these phrases are fixed in eternity, to be sure, like the cardinal points on a map: We always say 'northwest" and "southeast", also "East meets West", almost unthinkable to put them in a different order. Ditto 'black and white'.

Just seen in Shanghai: "East-south exit" (in English).

[Will.]

Which element of the collocation carries more importance?
fish or chips
bread, butter
salt, pepper
Which is used more frequently?
Which would you like most of?
My Punjabi Student says Jam and Bread.
Anty more ideas from your guru Biff?

[dyak]

[wanderlust1066]

Well, actually I suspect your "mate" was going along the right lines. The problem is, if you are only prepared to accept an answer that you personally find to be pleasing, why ask the question.

I say that your friend was along the right lines - as opposed to co-locational factors - as even with pairs you have never heard before, you will group them together in the same way as any other native speaker. That is, the system is open-ended and rule-governed.

There are rules behind language - together they form what is called a 'grammar'. All because those rules operate well below (or above) awareness does not mean they don't exist.

[wanderlust1066]

[Dr.J]

the chinese say 'east-south' in chinese. hence the sign.

just thought I'd clear up that one.

[Guest]

Isn't it just a case of putting the main idea first and the less important thing, or the thing which accompanies it, second?

eg pie and mash, pie and peas, hamburger and chips/fries, apple pie and custard, rhubarb and custard, strawberries and cream.

[dmb]

[MELEE]

And what about names?

Which would you say, Tom and Jerry, or Jerry and Tom?

In my family we have these pairs.

Bob and Judy,
Linda and Willie,
Dick and Gail,
Carmen and Larry.

Two men first, two women first, the ones who've married in are all the men, certainly we don't think two are more important? But we never say them the other way around.

[MELEE]

Ummm,

That *beep* should read as the common nickname for Richard.