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[furiousmilksheikali]

Recently, the Lancet published a report about levels of alcoholism in Russia based on a single town in the Urals. According to the report the levels of alcoholism consumption were responsible for around half the deaths of working-aged males which sounds incredible to me. I can't help thinking that the survey results were a little too small or restricted to be truly indicative of the country as a whole.

Could you give your opinion on whether the survey sounds accurate to you or not?In particular I noticed that many of the deaths came from drinking such things as cologne and anti-freeze due to their high alcohol levels. I was told that such practices would be pointless given the cheap prices of regular brands of vodka.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673607609416/abstract?pubType=related

You need to sign up to read it but signing in is free.

Here are some excerpts:

[mdk]

50 percent seems to be on the high side to me. Possibly it was one of those situations where somebody got hold of some bad liqour. There was a spate of those last winter because the government was trying to crack down on alcohol and people were selling and drinking bad hootch.


Having lived there I tend to be very leary of news reports from Russia written by people who aren't actually living there. So many axes to grind.

I have heard from people that Iceland, France, Sweden, and Russia all have terrible problems with alcohol. Coming from the US and working as an RN where I have lots and lots of business from all sorts of substance abuse, Russia at least didn't seem to be as bad as Gallup, New Mexico where they would have a drive up window in the liqour store and you could get a pint of everclear (100 proof) and some orange juice without getting out of the car.

At least they don't have meth there ....yet (knock on wood)

[jpvanderwerf2001]

I don't have time to read the article fully yet, but I will posit that alcoholism is near 50% in many of the villages I have visited (this is for men). In the cities I think that the percentage drops.
Of course, much of this depends on how one defines "alcoholism". It's my estimation that "alcoholism" in the US, for example, has a quite different meaning than "alcoholism" in Russia. Meaning, to Americans, many Russians would be considered alcoholics that simply wouldn't have that label in Russia. Drinking beer in the morning on the bus is common here (before work); I think that many Americans would find this alcoholic behavior. I have had co-workers who have 100 grams of vodka for lunch. They would most definitely not be considered alcoholic in Russia. In the States? Probably (at least broderline).
Just my opinion.

[mdk]

In the US most clinicians would define alcholism as starting from the point where you HAVE to have a drink regularly.

One way I assess it is to ask somebody what they drink before breakfast. If they regularly have to have an eye-opener to get going that indicates significant physical dependency.

My s.o. in Russia was divorced from an alcoholic. She was definitely not an alcoholic, but would drink a vodka from time to time. It becomes a question of being sociable at times.

I always begged off with a non-existent medical excuse to avoid being sucked into a drinking contest when being around strangers.

Has anyone else seen the soviet era poster against drinking? There is a significant (but small) population of teetotalers in the country.

[furiousmilksheikali]

Thanks for your observations. I have only been to Russia once and my stay was short but I do remember being given a complimentary shot of vodka during breakfast in a restaurant in St. Petersburg. I take it from your responses that this is not particularly strange. I did also notice that people would walk around swigging from bottles of beer quite often in Moscow and it was a habit I adopted to try and blend in.

[mdk]

I have only eaten breakfast at restaurants very rarely in Moscow. My standard breakfast was a "Stardog" Sandvich (sort of a like a burger king whopper, but with the big spiral ukranian sausage instead of a hamburger patty) Or maybe I would have a mushroom blini from one of the stands. Stardog is run by Pepsi.

I also was/am very fond of the fresh Russian doughnuts (Ponchiki)

You would see young men drinking from a bottle of beer on the metro, but you might also see a drunk passed out on the seat and this very large space around him - large spaces are rare on the rush hour metro. Also the occasional street pizza. Moscow has (who knows?) 15 million people and you could see that on the IRT as well.

Last night coming home with a 120 mile trip ahead of me, I stopped and bought a Carl's Jr. "Six dollar bacon and guacamole burger combo" - burp! (Sigh! I miss mushroom blini)

The beer in Russia is all 500 ml. It isn't civilized like in Spain where you can get a 250 ml. glass. 500 ml. will ruin me for an hour, but the short beer suits me well - especially with a tapa.

[coledavis]

Ok, also anecdotal: Go to a celebration, e.g. a neighbour's 30th birthday bash at a local restaurant, and somebody's brother will keep filling up your glass of vodka. Also, people think it's a bit peculiar not to down your vodka in one shot. My sister-in-law reckons that if you don't join in, some people will consider you rude, e.g. "you don't like my family then?". So the drinking culture certainly sets up the conditions for people to succumb to alcoholism.

[GF]

[mdk]

Well, I've seen kids in Germany having a beer with their bratwurst and I hear that Belgium has the highest per capita beer intake. Alcoholism in Sweden - I have always heard is a major problem.

They should only get down on their knees and thank God they haven't been hit with the meth curse. Here in California -Bozehmoi!

As to the question, why aren't you drinking vodka? don't you like my family? I always claim a medical problem and then ask for a glass of kvass.

Once I was on an autobus in Tomsk and I was sitting next to a lager lout (I guess you would call him) who kept pestering me to know as an American which team I followed. I just smiled graciously and replied - Nu, mne nravitsya shak-mat ( Well, I actually like chess ) I could tell by the smiles around on the bus that it was generally considered well played.

[GF]

I've been to Sweden twice and have seen many Swedes here in Tallinn and yes they drink a lot, but alcoholism there isn't as bad as in Russia mainly because it isn't as available. You can buy alcohol only in government run shops that close early and the prices are shockingly high (at least compared to Russian/Estonian prices).

[furiousmilksheikali]

Luxemburg and Belgium appear to have higher per capita alcohol intakes but the figures are often misleading. They are usually based on sales and given that alcohol is cheap there they have a lot of trade from British people on "booze-cruises" and from others in the EU. Also a factor is that the aforementioned home-brewed alcohol won't appear on those figures or the cologne and other substitutes that were mentioned in the Lancet article.

[rusmeister]

(Whilst we are sitting in judgement on the Russians...) Granted, Russia has significant problems, and they are also culturally driven, but they are also out in the open more -the laws don't force them to hide it so much, and their social-medical system leaves the drunks laying on the steps.

Actually, speaking as an American, there is a problem with the American perspective on drinking as well.
Probably dating from Puritan origins, we view alcoholic drinks as either medicinal or narcotic. All of our laws, controls, and behavioral judgements stem from this. We do not view it as just a drink. This shocks us when we go to other countries and see them treating it as a drink - Italians pouring a (smaller) glass of wine for older children, Britons sometimes doing the same with beer. Because we see its basic nature and purpose as narcotic, we have a built-in inhibition to enjoy it in moderation, or even to let others enjoy it in moderation. America has the highest legal drinking age (21) in the world (outside of Islamic countries where it is altogether forbidden) and this 'forbidden fruit' attitude drives our own abuse of alcohol, and not only among teens. We can't enjoy the fruit of the vine without getting self-righteous about it (or something like that).

[Aussie Chick]

Good points regarding the American's view of alcohol compared to other nationalities around the world.

I grew up in a household where we children were allowed to have a small amount of wine or beer when it was being served (in moderation) to the adults in the family. And I mean small - just a tablespoon or so.

As a result, I came to look upon alcohol as "a drink" - not something naughty to overindulge in.

And my tastebuds from childhood seemed to carry on into adulthood too - I don't really like wine, although I'll have a glass with a meal for a special occasion. And beer is too bitter from me so I rarely drink that, too.

I like vodka though!

[ColdRodear]

Well said, Rusmeister!

[jonniboy]