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dusty100
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject: Hess - in Taiwan - opinons ? |
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Hi there - I have recently been offered a job in Taiwan through Hess - as this is my first foray into ESL life, I wondered if anyone had first hand experience of this employer? (the exact school / location has yet to be confirmed).
I am debating whether to hold of acceptance whilst researching other opportunities - or to accept it and enjoy whatever challenges are thrown at me !
Any advice / comments would be appreciated. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Hess - in Taiwan - opinons ? |
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js.
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dusty100
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Jason - is that a hint of cycinism or first hand experience I detect !
To be honest. I am not looking to become a career EFL teacher - so am not too concerned about the approach - as long as the students are getting a decent enough education. I am more concerned with getting paid (as long as its enough to get some beers in etc) and receiving support if needed.
Can you recommend other agencies/schools ? I've read some of your other postings - is it fair to say Taipei is not too bad a place to stay for a year or so ? Nightlife ?! Accomodation ok ? |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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][][
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Okami
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Hess is what you make of it. The pay is low but they will almost never screw you over. You will have to work Saturdays. My roommate in the US did 3 years with Hess and liked it. He had other reasons for coming to Taiwan, money was not a chief concern for him.
Please understand the reason for the Hess Mcteacher m,ethod. They get a lot of people and they need a definite set program that they can explain. How are they going to do that if the teacher just plays bingo or hangman all class because he/she knows almost nothing about what they are doing? I'm not sure what education Mr. Seeburn has in TEFL principles besides speaking it.
Mr. Seeburn has never lived in Taipei or worked here from what his posts have mentioned. Expenses will run you about $35,000NT($1000US) a month in Taipei on average. Your beginning pay will be around $40K to $70K a month. There are considerable start up costs to consider, i.e. 2 months deposit for a place, cellphone, 20% taxes for first 6 months, not know what or where to eat, etc.
There is full time work available. You'll have to earn it and pay your dues. Fulltime for one employer sucks in my opinion as it is normally a salary arrangement not in your favor. I work 2 jobs now, both pay hourly and one provides my legal documents. I don't work nights(after 5pm) or weekends.
Connections and who you know in Taipei are the most important thing so be friendly and network. I would not have my schedule now without someone I worked with for 6 months when I first got here 3 years ago.
CYA
Okami |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:56 am Post subject: |
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js
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| dusty100 wrote: |
| I am debating whether to hold of acceptance whilst researching other opportunities - or to accept it and enjoy whatever challenges are thrown at me ! |
As has been mentioned by Okami, HESS as well as a host of other chain schools offer good job security. You know that your paperwork will be processed promptly and legally, you know that any taxes deducted from your pay will be passed onto the tax office enabling you to claim some of this back at the end of the tax year, you know exactly how much you will get per hour (or month) and how many hours you will have to teach each week, you know exactly what to teach and in many cases even have a full recipe on how to teach it (although unlike the suggestion that it is a McSchool, you are not necessarily required to teach it that way). You will get the benefit of training and having other teachers and staff fluent in English (both foreigners and Chinese) to help you through your teaching and any problems that you may encounter finding an apartment, buying a phone etc. You will most likely be able to select as many or as few hours as you want to work per week (generally 14 hours per week minimum), and a choice of program that you would like to teach. Make sure that you decide when you want to teach before you interview with these places. If you want to work mornings and keep your evenings free tell them. If you want to keep your mornings free for study and only work afternoons and evenings then let them know these requirements. If you don�t want to work on weekends then specify this upfront. Generally speaking the chain schools will be able to offer some flexibility as they have a number of positions available. Be polite about it, but if they cant offer you something within your requirements then feel free to let them know that you need to think about it. There are options other than HESS, including Kojen, Joy etc. Give these guys a try also.
As discussed extensively on these boards, in most cases you are better off not to commit to any job before you come. This doesn�t mean that you cant have a particular school in mind, it just means that you shouldn�t sign anything until you have had a chance to check that the school, staff and program are in line with what you want. Feel free to take advantage of airport pickup and free accommodation etc, if you are pretty sure that you want to work for that school, but please understand that should you choose to work for a school other than the one that has shown you this hospitality, that you should reimburse them for these services if you don�t end up working for them. Some may not agree with this, but I think that it is the right thing to do, and there is no sense burning bridges if you don�t have to. The alternative is to arrive on your own and then you don�t have any obligations to any one.
The chain schools come under some criticism for low rates of pay but realistically considering what they offer I personally believe that you could do a lot worse. Taking into consideration the support and training that you receive, the quality of the materials and classrooms toys etc that they have, and the peace of mind that working for these schools offer, I think that they are well worth investigating. Sure you can find other jobs in small schools that may offer more money, but there is always uncertainty there. This is not to say that you should avoid these schools, but you need to be wary which is difficult if you are a newcomer and are not sure of what to be wary of.
The choice of which city in which to work is really a personal choice. Taipei is probably the most convenient as far as government affairs and travel out of the country etc., but cities down south also have a lot to offer as far as beaches etc. What I would avoid if I were new to Taiwan, is any posting in a country or rural area. Stay in one of the cities at first. If you are then happy then feel free to investigate making a move to the country.
All the best! |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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js
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Ok Jason. I'll bite!
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| You know these things with any school. Taiwan is a civilized, developped country. Of course the people you work for are going to help you if you need help. You will be subjected to the "honoured guest treatment" as a newcoming foreigner in Taiwan. People you meet on the street will help you, for cripes sake. Of course the school will. This does not even have to be discussed. I wonder sometimes about these posters and their comments. The interesting thing is that the small private schools tend to give a much warmer welcome and to do much more for you than do the bigger chain schools just because volume of teachers means they can't give that level of service to everyone who comes. Your teaching assistant in any school will help you with finding an appartment and getting a phone, setting up, etc. Again, people tend to get lost in the big chain schools and the set up service is generally better in the smaller places. Regarding job security: there is none. If the economy experiences a downswing, Hess will lay off teachers the same as everyone else. If parents start pulling their kids, the schools have to cut back. |
So far you have attacked me twice for by suggesting that I am suggesting that Taiwanese are all dishonest. Well I have not said this, nor have I alluded to this and in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Do your research and check out my postings on this and other boards and you will see where I am coming from.
Your views on smaller schools are somewhat naive and idealistic in my point of view. There is absolutely no doubt that the big chain schools will in most cases offer a more trouble free entry for a newly arrived foreigner into the country when it comes to processing visas etc. and ensuring that the teacher is legal. Whilst the owners of small schools may have the best of intentions, they may not be aware of how they should be doing things, such as how much tax they should be taking out, and how long the processing of visas takes etc. I know of at least half a dozen teachers who all found themselves in a tight situation and in fact working illegally because their boss failed to comply with regulations. Ignorance is unfortunately no defense. Had the teachers been here for a while they would possibly have known what to expect and could have ensured that things were conducted properly and within the required timeframe. Of course some small schools can get it right, but if you want complete security in this regard, as a newcomer you shouldn�t discount the big chains.
The other concerns with some of the smaller schools is legality. Once again lets assume that they are honest owners. They have opened a new school or have an existing school but have decided to employ foreigners to start teaching classes there. I don�t know what paperwork they need for this, but once again through personal experience I know that businesses rarely wait for all the legal documentation to come through before commencing business. So the well meaning owner thinks, 'Well, we will employ the teacher on a visa through another (legal) school, and once everything is legal we will transfer this over to our school'. Sounds reasonable and all very nice, but leaves the foreigner very vulnerable to being caught for working illegally during that period of time that could last for six months to a year. Someone who has been working here for a while would be aware of this problem, and may be able to do things such as compare the Chinese sponsor company name on the ARC given to them by the school with the Chinese name of the school. Differences don�t necessarily mean that one is working illegally, but would be reason for concern. A newly arrived person may not know about any of this. A big chain school is established and has all of the licenses in order so this isn�t a concern.
Yes it is true that the small schools will often do their best to help you, and I haven�t suggested that they wouldn�t. The problem is that unless they speak really good English, or you speak adequate Chinese, misunderstandings may occur. These misunderstandings are less likely at a school that has English speaking or foreign staff. And before you say anything about this - yes they are English schools so the other staff will speak some English in most cases, but is it enough to communicate problems. The final consideration here is understanding of western ideals. For example the school may provide you with accommodation either sharing a room with another teacher or sharing a house with their cousins family (particularly in country areas). From their point of view this is being very hospitable, and I think that it is. The problem is that I am sure that the majority of foreigners would prefer not to have these living arrangements.
Disagree entirely that people get lost within chain schools. They are not that big!
Once again, nothing about Taiwanese setting out to rip people off, but certainly concerns of the best intentions going wrong. The fact is that you, the foreigner, will be held accountable for all of these things, regardless of whether the school put you in that position intentionally or not. You need to do your research and do your best to ensure that you wont encounter these problems. This would be almost impossible to do for a small, privately owned school hidden away in an alley somewhere. So my point again is, don�t avoid these schools, but realize that unless you know exactly what you are doing you might be best to take the safe route until you have had more experience on the ground here.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| This makes no sense. How do you reimburse someone for picking you up at the airport, telling the parents that you're coming, getting your classes ready and having the kids show up on Monday morning all set for you to teach them. Please, ignore this guy. If you commit to a school, work at that school. Don't stiff them. It makes for very bad relations between teachers and school owners on the island and causes a lot of the problems that people experience working on Taiwan. |
I think that my post was pretty clear, but if I have given the impression that teachers should abuse this system, then I need to clarify this. The best thing for new teachers to do is to come free of commitments to any school. If you have found a school that you like and are 90% sure that you want to work for them then tell them this and arrange things. They will not arrange classes for you until they have met you. If you arrive and everything is as promised you can sign a contract once you get here. My point was that if you were to get here and find that everything wasn�t as promised (rates of pay, hours offered, location etc.) or you were to find that you just didn�t feel comfortable with the school or the staff, then you are under no obligation to sign on. In my view if you didn�t sign on then you should offer them a fair amount of money for the assistance that they have provided you. Of course I am not advocating that teachers abuse the system and generosity offered, but there is no point feeling pressured into signing a contract to work for a year in a place that you are not happy. Unfortunately, when you are looking for a job from overseas (and have never been here) it can be difficult to determine what constitutes a good and fair offer. Any half decent school would understand the difficulties of a teacher coming halfway around the world to work in an English speaking country. Show the school the respect that you would like them to show you, and in many cases this respect will be reciprocated.
What you don�t want to do is follow Jason's earlier advice and sign a contract with a recruiter or school before you come. Research this and other boards extensively and you will see that there is very little, if any, support for what Jason suggests. Quite simply it isn't in YOUR best interests to do so.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Yeah, the country places are a bit hard to adjust to. Quality of classroom toys and materials? At Hess? Are you joking? (I find your comments on peace of mind and "training and support" to be equally funny, but won't say anything in case I get sued...these McSchools are very waspy about their reputations). I really don't think you should tote the big chain schools as "peace of mind solutions" though. This might be taking things just a bit too far....just a bit...(while I am rolling on the floor laughing) |
The big chain schools actually have very good reputations, support and materials. The only complaints that tend to made about them is that the rates of pay aren�t as high as some places, that there might be tighter controls (or more assistance - depends on how you look at it) over what you teach, too many teaching hours and fines for premature termination of contracts (which in many cases is just a reimbursement of the costs the school has incurred in employing you, whereas some of the smaller schools expect you to incur these costs upfront so don�t need to claim them back if you leave).
It�s the complaints that you don�t hear being made about the chain schools that is the most revealing though. You don�t hear complaints of these schools refusing to pay wages or paying late, failing to pay taxes or provide withholding statements, putting teachers in schools illegally, not having enough teaching hours for teachers, discrepancies between the English and Chinese versions of the contract (bearing in mind that the Chinese version will prevail), asking teachers to wait until next month to get their wages as things are tight, expecting teachers to do favors for the boss or the bosses family, or do unpaid overtime work. Of course you will not necessarily encounter these problems at small schools, but most reports of these sorts of problems revolve around small schools. These are all big problems that newcomers face, and the lack of these problems at chain schools that make them not a bad choice for newcomers. Not the golden palace at the end of the road, but not a bad place to start here in Taiwan. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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js
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:16 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| What everyone should know about Mr Seeburn can be gleaned from his other posts on this forum. 1. (probably the most salient point) He no longer resides in Taiwan. 2. His total time spent here was likely less than nine months. Nothing against the guy personally, but I think we should all be aware of these facts when considering input from him on this forum. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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js
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| What everyone should know about Mr Seeburn can be gleaned from his other posts on this forum. 1. (probably the most salient point) He no longer resides in Taiwan. 2. His total time spent here was likely less than nine months. Nothing against the guy personally, but I think we should all be aware of these facts when considering input from him on this forum. |
Thanks for letting us know Steve. Now I understand why he is so wrong with the information that he gives. Makes me feel like a bit of dill wasting my time trying to set him straight, and I guess that this is why the rest of the people in the know on this board seem to ignore his posts. Gotta wonder about how exciting a life he must be leading now to be spending so much time on this board, gripping strenuously to his past experiences here, but I guess that it takes all types on these boards.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| not at all. They come from personal experience. |
Ahem, what your whole nine month epic adventure in Taiwan, at probably one or two schools. You will have to forgive me if I don't take this too seriously. For the record I have been in Taiwan since 1995, which isn't as long as some others, but long enough to enable to recognize the offal that you are dishing out for what it is.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I could ensure that a teacher was legal, and I was only in Taiwan for under a year. |
Please feel free to post a checklist for new teachers on how to determine whether a school that they are thinking of working for is legal. But then why bother going to all this effort when you can almost walk into a job with a school that you KNOW is legal.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| The regulations are very simple. I don't think you'll find too many schools in Taiwan that don't know how to process a foreigner's paperwork. They also know how to deduct tax, just as a business in NA would know how to do this. You are advocating utter incompetency in management. I would say that the rate of this in Taiwan is very low, though as usual you may run into the occasional idiot. Do you know how to file a tax return in your native country? Most intelligent adults do. So do the Taiwanese. The regulations are simple: University degree, police background check, health inspection, valid passport. Submitted to the correct office, it takes about two months. |
Well why do so many schools, particularly the smaller ones get it wrong? Either they are well meaning but haven't done their homework or they are dishonest. Whilst I am sure that there are schools that fit both categories, my personal opinion is that most are honest. If one has never opened a business before then you are not necessarily aware of what is required. Anyone who has lived in China or Taiwan before will know that government departments, and many businesses for that matter, aren't very forthcoming with information. In many cases, unless you ask the right questions, then you don't get the right answers. If you are new to business you don't necessarily know what questions to ask.
The most obvious example of the above is the 20% / 6-13% tax rule as it applies to foreigners, which is so different from the tax rules that apply to locals. Therefore, knowing how to file your own tax return doesn't necessarily mean that you can follow the same procedures in doing one for foreigners - as is the case in Taiwan. Now, the tax rules are pretty simple, but if you haven't investigated it you can make mistakes. The biggest mistake that I have seen small schools making is deducting tax at the lower tax rate and not paying it to the tax office. Once again assuming that they are not ripping you off, they could consider that they are saving you from having to pay tax at the higher rate. If you are only here for a year and then you leave then this is no real drama. This only really becomes a problem if you leave that school after the first year to work at another school. Filing your return for the second year the tax office may question you over the fact that you didn't file a return nor pay taxes for the previous year (they will be looking at the entry/exit stamps in your passport to determine this). You may then be required to pay the previous years taxes as well as the current years.
By the way Jason. You don't need a police background check to get a visa to work in Taiwan. Funny how someone who claims the regulations are so simple could make such a blatant mistake. Oh well, as I have repeatedly stated individuals do make mistakes and this is why you may be better off working for a big organization when you first arrive and until you get on your feet. Oh, and it may be splitting hairs, but your documentation is actually submitted to three different offices, one after the other, not one office as you have stated.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| And yet you nonetheless consider yourself competent to give advice in this area. I know what paperwork they need. They need a safetly inspection of the building and a business license for tax purposes. For the safety inspection there needs to be emergency exit signs in the rooms, and fire extinguishers in various places. For the business licence it is similar to registering for a business in NA. There are no regulations for running a private school in Taiwan with relation to what is taught or the curriculum or anything like that. I was lucky enough to be the first teacher at a brand new school and I went through the opening process with my owners. It is very simple. Then when the paperwork for the business is done your boss sponsors you for an ARC. |
Unlike yourself Jason, I will not state something to be a fact unless I know that it is. If I am not sure about something then I will state this upfront and hopefully someone who does know can fill in the blanks. What you know and have stated above is what everybody knows - of course they need those minimum documents and checks. That's just common sense! What I am talking about is the business licenses, school licenses (be they kindergarten, cram school, exam preparation courses etc.), permits to employ foreign staff (including quotas for the number of teachers they can employ), location licenses as some businesses are not able to operate in certain areas etc. I know that all of these exist but I don't know what is required in getting them. Once again your oversimplified answer leads one to believe that you have a very simple view of what happens here.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| You are talking about a brand new business. I have already told you the paperwork that is required. They can't have kids in the building before the safety inspection is done anyway, and without a business license they can't issue receipts so it is unlikely that they will have any customers. |
You really aren't very experienced with any of this are you Jason. Anyone who has worked here for more than a year within a few smaller or new schools, will almost certainly have had experience with a school that wasn't fully legal. You won't necessarily be told this as the boss doesn't want to alarm you, but when you are sent on an unexpected all morning outing to the park with your kindergarten kids, or arrive at school to find that all the textbooks and posters off the wall have been hidden away, you can put two and two together and know that an inspection is underway. Things are most certainly not done the way here as they are done back home, and while this may be disturbing in many respects (to know that a preschool can open and enroll students without having a licence to operate), it does seem to be the accepted procedure in Taiwan. I can't believe that the people who undertake the inspections wouldn't know what was going on, and if the inspections were really meant to find something why wouldn't they be random rather than scheduled. The conspiracy theorists here put this all down to guanxi and kickbacks, and whilst I am sure that taking the inspector out to lunch after the inspection is exactly this, I think that overall is just the way the wheels turn here.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Actually what happens is schools rent teachers out to other schools though contracts, because the renting school couldn't get a teacher due to the fact that they lacked the proper connections. Happened to me. If you are in this situation you need a lawyer to annul the contract with the original school so that you can work at the school you actually work at. This is not the same as annulling your ARC, which is already at the school you work for. There is a contract between the mother school and the baby school, where the baby school pays the mother so much each month for you. It is a scam and people get rich off of it. I hate it when schools do this. It is just stupid, because they could have just contacted an agent and gotten a teacher, but as we all know, ignorance is the mother of catastrophe. |
Who cares why or how the schools do this? The fact is that the teacher will be working illegally, and if they get caught will be treated as an illegal worker and deported. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I am willing to conceed that the employers may not necessarily be doing this intentionally and may have the best of intentions, but their actions are reprehensible in my point of view. If the school isn't able to offer an ARC directly then they should tell the teacher this, not lead the teacher to believe that they are legal when they are not. If it is 'no problem' then why keep it a secret. This is the biggest concern that any newly arrived teacher will face in working for any school, particularly the smaller ones and elementary/high schools (both of which are well know to operate in this way).
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| All of the licenses? What licenses? There is no licensing system for private ESL schools in Taiwan. You and your chinese girlfriend (or wife, assuming you have one) can start your own ESL school if you want to. It is very easy to do. |
Let me answer this with a question. Can 7-11 employ a foreigner to work on the counter servicing customers? The answer is theoretically 'Yes' but in practice 'No'. It all comes down to licencing, business registration and the ability of a business to prove that a local person cannot do the job that you want to offer to a foreigner. Of course schools are licensed as private cram schools. This is how they are able to secure visa's for overseas staff by stating that the staff will be teaching English and that a native English speaker is required for the job.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Regarding comparing names on your ARC: If you ever do this you will notice that the name of the sponsor on your ARC is a person, not a school. It will be the name of whoever sponsored you. What do differences in the name on the ARC mean, Brian? Perhaps you could enlighten us? |
Sorry Jason but this is totally incorrect. The second last line on the front of your ARC is the name of the company that you are working for. This cannot be an individual as an individual cannot receive the authority to employ a foreigner. Not all companies can either (as per the 7-11 example above), and therefore although an employer may have a totally legal business and school, they cannot put their name on the ARC unless they are registered to employ foreign staff. The problem is that you are legally only allowed to work for the company (school) written on your ARC. In cases where your primary employer has agreed for you to work at a secondary employer, this secondary employer must also be registered to employ foreigners and their company name must be contained within the space for amendments on the back of your card. You should have a copy of this agreement for your own protection and your primary employer remains responsible for the payment of all of your benefits such as taxes and health insurance. If at any time you are found to be working in a place other than that stipulated on your ARC then you are deemed to be working illegally, and vulnerable to fines or deportation.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Yeah, and then when you get p*ssed off because the McSchool is paying you 10,000NT a month less than all your friends are making and not letting you teach privates, and you find all these great jobs with better salaries and easier working conditions, your "safe" school refuses to let you quit. And at the end of your contract, when you want to move on to another school, they set it up so you have to work for them again or get off the island. Very safe, Brian, very safe. |
At a 'McSchool' you are told exactly how much you will be paid, and that is exactly how you will get in your pay at the end of the month. To accept the deal and gripe about it later because others are earning more than you would just be immature. Just because a school offers more per hour doesn't mean that you will end up with more in your pocket at the end of the month. Privates can be good but are notoriously unreliable and shouldn't be relied upon for anything more than drinking money. In fact the chain schools are less likely to cause you any troubles when you quit, provided that you have completed your contract term. A small school may want to prevent you from leaving them for another school at the end of your contract year as they may be worried that you will take away what you learned working with them and share this with their competitors. A large school is far less vulnerable to this sort of competition and has a greater opportunity of filling the job that you vacate.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Your rose coloured universe doesn't exist on Taiwan. If you agree to work for a school, you should work for them. They will expect you to. They have hired you, and are waiting for you at the airport, and have gotten the classes ready for you to teach. You should not stiff them. |
Does this go for schools too? Is a school that you have shown interest in and has arranged for your pick-up and initial accommodation required to employ you even if your face to face interview with them reveals that you are totally unsuitable for the job that they have on offer? If not, are they guilty of stiffing you? I think not. It is their prerogative to get the best person for the job as it is yours to get the best job that you can get. Provided that you act responsibly and reasonably you will know that you have done the right thing.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| The exception to this is in the situation where they blatantly attempt to change your contract, in which case you should immediately threaten to quit unless they change it back again. I don't endorse the "pay off the school so you can quit and go work somewhere else" method. Why throw your money around like that? If they break the contract, quit. If they don't, but you don't like the school, stick around for a few months, then quit. |
I for one certainly would not work for a company that tried to cheat me before I had even started to work for them. What a ridiculous suggestion! Surely their initial actions are a sign of what is to come. In fact the biggest perpetrators of the bait and switch seem to be some of the unscrupulous agents. I have noticed that the agent that Jason always recommends has a website with job listings available. These listings have remained unchanged for at least the last month, which to my mind means one of two things - one, that the jobs are not getting filled; two, that the listings are not updated and therefore the actual job listings may not currently be available. The fact that there is a posting on this board regarding this particular recruitment companies apparent bait and switch activities seems to bear this out. Once again nothing against recruiters as a whole, but the post regarding this particular company seems to suggest that they want teachers to sign contracts before they arrive. If they are indeed involved in bait and switch activities then this would make them unscrupulous in my books. I have no personal experience with this company and base my views entirely upon the information contained within this forum and the website of the company referred to by Jason.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Don't give anyone any money. |
But Jason as an advocate of agents aren't you actually advocating that people in fact do this. Agents don't work for free. Some require you to pay them upfront, and others negotiate deals where an employer agrees to pay a certain amount for a teacher per month to the agent, and you get some of this. Either way,by dealing through an agent you are giving them your money. If you are happy to do this because a job is worth it then wonderful. But don't be fooled into thinking that the agent isn't collecting money from you some how.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| This is just so much cr*p that I don't know where to start. You should take a look at the postings on this board about Hess for a beginner if you are at a doubt as to whether anyone has ever complained about it. Then look at the postings for the other big chain schools in Taiwan. They are the most complained about institutions on the island. Every so often you get an angry posting about some person who has been scr*wed over at a small private school. The vast majority of the complaints come from the big chain schools, in all the areas you have listed above. I sometimes wonder if we're talking about the same island. Have you ever worked for a chain school on Taiwan? Keep in mind that once you "start" at a Taiwanese chain school, they might make it very difficult for you to leave. |
Looking at these posts bears out my position regarding the types of complaints made about chain schools as opposed to the types of complaints made about small school. Readers can take their own time to read these and find out for themselves.
Jason, do yourself a favor and don't embarrass yourself any further. I for one think that it is great that you spend the time to help new arrivals here to Taiwan, but stick to what you know as being fact, which considering your short stay is likely to be very little. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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js
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Okami
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:08 am Post subject: |
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This can all be very confusing for a newbie to read. I will explain the merits and distortions of what both Brian and Jason Seeburn have said. A bit of background first. I've lived in Taiwan for over 3 years working currently on finishing my 4th year. I've worked for a "Mcschool" and I've worked for smaller schools some franchises of large chains and some just small independent schools. I just got my work permit and my residence visa and I'm going to get my ARC sometime soon.
| Quote: |
jason_seeburn wrote:
The exception to this is in the situation where they blatantly attempt to change your contract, in which case you should immediately threaten to quit unless they change it back again. I don't endorse the "pay off the school so you can quit and go work somewhere else" method. Why throw your money around like that? If they break the contract, quit. If they don't, but you don't like the school, stick around for a few months, then quit.
I for one certainly would not work for a company that tried to cheat me before I had even started to work for them. What a ridiculous suggestion! Surely their initial actions are a sign of what is to come. In fact the biggest perpetrators of the bait and switch seem to be some of the unscrupulous agents. I have noticed that the agent that Jason always recommends has a website with job listings available. These listings have remained unchanged for at least the last month, which to my mind means one of two things - one, that the jobs are not getting filled; two, that the listings are not updated and therefore the actual job listings may not currently be available. The fact that there is a posting on this board regarding this particular recruitment companies apparent bait and switch activities seems to bear this out. Once again nothing against recruiters as a whole, but the post regarding this particular company seems to suggest that they want teachers to sign contracts before they arrive. If they are indeed involved in bait and switch activities then this would make them unscrupulous in my books. I have no personal experience with this company and base my views entirely upon the information contained within this forum and the website of the company referred to by Jason. |
If a school tries to cheat you on the first day or when negotiating the contract and you can't throw it up to an honest error because they fail to rectify it, then find another job. Never trust them when they promise to take care of you but fail to put it in the contract. People who are going to cheat you will use it against you. My first "Mcschool" promised a raise, but then when we asked for it, they said it wasn't in the contract. Out of 20 foreign teachers, 1 ABC was smart enough to have it in his contract and he got his raise 3 months after he was suppose to.
| Quote: |
jason_seeburn wrote:
Don't give anyone any money.
But Jason as an advocate of agents aren't you actually advocating that people in fact do this. Agents don't work for free. Some require you to pay them upfront, and others negotiate deals where an employer agrees to pay a certain amount for a teacher per month to the agent, and you get some of this. Either way,by dealing through an agent you are giving them your money. If you are happy to do this because a job is worth it then wonderful. But don't be fooled into thinking that the agent isn't collecting money from you some how. |
Some schools and/or agents will take the money from you one way or another. It could be lower pay or an outright deduction for the agent fee. Small schools almost always go through an agent, especially the type of schools that Jason Seeburn advocates working for. Large schools tend to avoid agents and have in house recruiting and hiring departments.
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Well why do so many schools, particularly the smaller ones get it wrong? Either they are well meaning but haven't done their homework or they are dishonest. .
You haven't proven this, and I find no evidence for it in your messages. I found that foreigners were generally deported for not having ARC's. |
Small schools do get it wrong, large schools tend not to. My current boss has applied for one other work permit, I had to ride her ass to get her to turn it in, because she felt there wasn't enough stuff.  
Compare this to my first "Mcschool" who had a dedicated person to do this and could get the whole process done in about 3 weeks, with no input from the foreign teacher, besides the initial paperwork.
I've also never seen anyone deported for teaching illegally unless it was a rumor or a friend of a friend type deal. Not that it doesn't or hasn't happened, I've just never heard of it personally and I socialize with a lot of people.
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The most obvious example of the above is the 20% / 6-13% tax rule as it applies to foreigners, which is so different from the tax rules that apply to locals. Therefore, knowing how to file your own tax return doesn't necessarily mean that you can follow the same procedures in doing one for foreigners - as is the case in Taiwan. Now, the tax rules are pretty simple, but if you haven't investigated it you can make mistakes. The biggest mistake that I have seen small schools making is deducting tax at the lower tax rate and not paying it to the tax office. Once again assuming that they are not ripping you off, they could consider that they are saving you from having to pay tax at the higher rate. If you are only here for a year and then you leave then this is no real drama. This only really becomes a problem if you leave that school after the first year to work at another school. Filing your return for the second year the tax office may question you over the fact that you didn't file a return nor pay taxes for the previous year (they will be looking at the entry/exit stamps in your passport to determine this). You may then be required to pay the previous years taxes as well as the current years.
If you are registered as a foreign worker you will have to pay the 20% rate and the school will have to deduct it. If they don't it will be an error on their tax return. At any rate, if you are there for more than a year and your first six months occur in the same year, you don't have to pay the 20%. If you aren't in this situation, you do have to pay it. Either way you either owe the money or you don't. If the school didn't deduct 20%, then you got an interest free loan for a year. What's wrong with that? |
Taxes are a great way to get into trouble in Taiwan. Your boss withholding the tax and not paying it into the Tax Bureau is a common complaint and happens with franchises of large schools and small schools with an uncommon frequency. The problem is that the tax bureau doesn't give a hoot about you and will promptly demand the tax from you unless you were smart and kept all your pay slips noting the tax withheld. Then they will go after your boss after you protest your innocence enough. If your boss doesn't give you the pay slips noting the tax withheld then you now have a fight between the Tax bureau, you and your boss. The tax bureau wants its money and someone has to pony up. If you still have time left on your contract, then think carefully about how your boss will feel about you reporting him to the tax buraeu. This wil mean that you need a copy of your contract and need to keep all your pay stubs.
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By the way Jason. You don't need a police background check to get a visa to work in Taiwan. Funny how someone who claims the regulations are so simple could make such a blatant mistake. Oh well, as I have repeatedly stated individuals do make mistakes and this is why you may be better off working for a big organization when you first arrive and until you get on your feet. Oh, and it may be splitting hairs, but your documentation is actually submitted to three different offices, one after the other, not one office as you have stated.
Funny, when I worked on Taiwan I was required to submit a police background check. Maybe it has changed. |
I've never heard of anyone having to submit a police background check unless they were married to a Taiwanese. Then it is to get the Joining-family-resident-visa(JFRV). I've never had to submit one. With benefit of the doubt, I would say that this is a local regulation or Jason was getting a JFRV.
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Unlike yourself Jason, I will not state something to be a fact unless I know that it is. If I am not sure about something then I will state this upfront and hopefully someone who does know can fill in the blanks. What you know and have stated above is what everybody knows - of course they need those minimum documents and checks. That's just common sense! What I am talking about is the business licenses, school licenses (be they kindergarten, cram school, exam preparation courses etc.),
There are no such licenses. Private schools in Taiwan are similar to private schools in North America. They are completely unregulated. This is mainly because they are cram schools, and completing a course at one does not count for anything, so there is no reason for the government to regulate them. The exception to this may be a kindergarten where there are some requirements for safety of the food that is served to the kids and qualifications of the support staff, and these places are also often hard to get an ARC for because the government considers them daycare centres and it is difficult to prove that a foreigner would make a better babysitter than would a Taiwanese person. But if the school also does night classes or afternoon classes then it can get you an ARC. |
Jason is a bit out of the loop for this one. For proof and verification of someone who is married to a Taiwanese and wants to start a school. Go to forumosa.com and look up Maoman's posts about how he found a great location, his lawyer said it was ok to have a school there, they proceeded with the work, and then a local inspector said it was not ok to have a school there. Maoman was out like $200,000NT for nothing. He speaks Chinese, has a Taiwanese wife, and had a Taiwanese lawyer. He still screwed it up and the lawyer had to pay half of the cost of putting the location to the original state.
Another key point about "kindergartens," there are 2 types. The first is just a daycare center and these are everywhere as the licenses are easier to get. The 2nd type is real kindergarten and these are rarer. In the area I work in they have 3 real kindergartens and a score of day care centers. You will be able to know the difference easily by just asking if all the Chinese teachers are licensed teachers. If they are, than it is a real kindergarten. Kindergartens of either type can not grant an ARC. Anchingbans and buxibans can. So if you get an ARC, than they probably have an anchingban that you work in. It is technically illegal for a foreigner to teach a child under 7 English. They have allowed foreign teachers to work in a kindergarten if there ARC provider approves it and then they/you register it with the authorities.
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permits to employ foreign staff (including quotas for the number of teachers they can employ),
No such permits exist. |
Really, then why isn't every school applying for legal working papers for their foreign teacher? Such permits do exist the MOE regulations for employing foreign teachers is strict, otherwise everybody would be doing it. Before 1992, foreigners could do anything practically in Taiwan, then they passed the most stringent requiremnts on foreigners that have only recently been relaxed. Do not ever underestimate the racist rhetoric of Dr. Sun "I don't know what the F I'm doing" Yatsen, which all civil servants are tested on.
They mention something about zoning next and this needs to be explained very carefully for newbies as this is where corruption florishes in Taiwan. The City Council Speaker of Kaoshiung paid millions of NT to get that job in bribes. Its a big scandal and you can look it up at www.taipeitimes.com. He did this because it gets him on the zoning commission and rezoning land is where the big bribes and money come from. You can't build anything hardly on agricultural land, but get it rezone to factory space, residential, or commercial and the property goes up in value steeply. They do not give you a zoning permit to change the zoning of your area. They give you a license that allows you to do that business(and ONLY THAT BUSINESS) in that area. You have to rent the spot before you can finish the paperwork for a legal business and it has to be inspected. I looked into starting a legal business in Taiwan. It ain't easy. 2 months to get all the paperwork to start a business is pretty normal. All businesses are incorporated. Sole propietorship is not really viewed by the Taiwanese gov't as legitamite enterprise as you can't easily tax them and they can do anything(see above). You do have to have a business license to import or export anything. Everybody in the night markets with the stalls is dodging taxes, I can assure you. I've actaully read up on some Ming and Ching dynasty tax laws and enforcement; it is amazing how similiar the sitaution still is.
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| You got my message wrong. The school is perfectly able to offer an ARC. But they are unable to find a teacher. So they rent one from another school, and process that person's paperwork as if he was their employee. Again I think you might be living in the past. Business on Taiwan has opened up considerably in the past 5 years. You may be "out of date" or "not currently informed". |
I'll say this slowly, loudly and simply. IT IS ILLEGAL TO WORK FOR ANYBODY UNLESS THAT COMPANIES NAME IS ON YOUR ARC(FRONT OR BACK). Is that easy enough. I was laughing my a$$ off when I read about one poor sucker at tealit working for a small school that had multiple branches and a mix of kindergarten and anchingban/buxiban. He was working at the kindergarten when the the MOE agents came, he promptly pulls out his ARC and pleads leaglity. The MOE agents promptly explains that he isn't suppose to be working at this location as this business is not allowed to have foreign teachers and it is not endorsed on his ARC. His boss paid the fine later, but they took him away in handcuffs that day. Read the tealit.com archives to get a better feel of who is right and/or post your legal inquiry on Forumosa's legal forum.
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| Exactly correct. But the school is licensed as a private school the same way that the 7-11 is licensed as a food store. It is just a designation. You are saying that there are special things that a school has to do to become licensed as a cram school. I am telling you that this is incorrect. If you don't believe me, please provide a list of the things that a school has to do to become licensed, and please acknowledge your source. I stand by my original assertion that there is no regulation system for private cram schools in Taiwan. The 7-11 probably, as a food store, has to meet more requirements than does the ESL school. |
Let me get to this as I find the example I will rpovide amusing. When you get married to a Taiwanese national and you get you JFRV that comes along with an open work permit. Now technically as the law states you can do anyjob that a Taiwanese can do. The MOE sees this differently in face of those regulations. They will demand that you get a work permit to work at a school. If they inspect a school and you do not have a work permit from them, they will arrest you. Legitamately, you could work at 7-11 with no problems with your open work permit, but not at a school because of the MOE. Now do you think they let any school go out and hire foreigners? I let you, the reader, decide.
A Taiwanese can sponsor you for a visit(not a resident visa, unless married) but it takes a legal corporate entity to get you legal working papers. I could own a corporation, employ 2 foreigners, and I could/would still have to do visa runs if I was not one of those foreigners.
Most schools will be very honest up front on whether they can provide legal working papers or not. they will tell you that they can't and they could sight the reason for you. The school has to be a certain size and have a certain level of business to employ a foreign teacher, to prevent abuse.
Parents rarely follow foreign teachers. The Chinese teacher is more likely to get parents to leave then some stranger. You have no power in Taiwan, once you understand that you can go about doing your own thing.
Please read this about agents:
http://www.tealit.com/agents.htm
Please take a look at the information and make your own decision. Personally Jason Seeburn doesn't wash with me and if Killian was still giving advice he would do a better job of explaining why than me. If it was our old comrade Battle-scarred, than Jason would look like a fool and a flame war would promptly break out.
CYA
Okami |
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