Job Discussion Forums

[John L]

My wife and I are considering moving to southern France and are starting to gather information. We are both ESOL teachers. I have a lot of experience at the university level (my qualifications are below).

We are not sure yet where in the region is best for job possibilities but would consider anything from Bordeaux to Nice, with Toulouse, Perpignan, Pau, Aix en Provence, Marseille as possibilities. There probably are others that we haven�t discovered yet.

From reading the various discussions on this France forum about university-level TESOL, I gather you have to go to France and approach the institutions in person, try to land some part-time work, and eventually, if you're lucky and make good connections, get something long-term or permanent. Obviously, France is a popular destination and there isn't a lot of turnover for the better jobs. We would secure jobs teaching in language institutes while we settle in and I hunt for opportunities at universities. We did this in Spain. An initial contract for me would be necessary, too, so I would be eligible to teach university courses.

The simple breakdown of my experience is as follows: 4 years university-level ESOL; presently teaching at a university in Japan; 12 years total experience in the field; MA Applied Linguistics (2000); CTEFLA (1996); former CELTA trainer; DoS in Spain 2 years; American citizen with EU passport too; very good spoken French (lived there as a child). My wife has a CELTA (2001) and several years teaching experience.

Can anyone offer some concrete suggestions about universities to consider in the region and about cities to investigate for initial institute work and even house rental options? I have a list of universities in France and several for private language schools, but they are daunting and don't tell me anything about the real situation, of course. Also, the French job websites require some specific terminology that I am as yet unfamiliar with. Any help there would be appreciated.

With two incomes, we figure we can support ourselves well enough working at private institutes (IH, Inlingua, etc.) but ultimately I'd like to get into university jobs.

We'd appreciate any advice. Thank you in advance.

[go2guy]

John-Of the cities you list, Aix-en-Provence and Toulouse are the 2 best options for universities. Both boast several institutions and both are beautiful cities (which of course means lots of teachers/trainers wanting to reside there). With your qualifications you will have no problem finding work. It would seem to me you deserve better than the Inlinguas of this world ... try the Chambers of Commerce and GRETAs for immediate work (usually the best pay for company stuff - though the pay rate in the south is generally lower than northern locations). The university (and business schools) are about arriving at the right time (probably too late now for this semester / January may be better), having the right credentials (which you do) and "jelling" with the DoS (you've been on that side of the equation, right?). Full time, long term positions with these orgs are indeed VERY difficult to come by, so your patience will be tried if that's your ideal. All in all I would think you should be able to make a solid living and "profite" from one of the best lifestyles in the world. Good luck!

[sally2005]

Hi. The only ways to get a permanent post at a French public university are:

1) Pass the French teaching exams (the Agr�gation, or, at a push the CAPES). The exams are 50% in French, and very literature-orientated. Being Anglophone isn't enough to pass the Agreg/CAPES, you need to learn how to write French-style dissertations, etc - it's at least one year of hard study.
If you pass the CAPES or Agreg exams, you then need to do a year of training, usually in a lyc�e or coll�ge.
If you pass the exam and the training year, you now have a job in the education system for life (coll�ge/lyc�e), but you are still not guaranteed a university post - you then have to apply to universities individually, and take your chances. If you succeed, your post at the university will be called a �PRAG� post.
Finally, be aware that during your training year (and afterwards if you don't get a university post first time and get stuck in coll�ge/lyc�e) you can be sent anywhere in France. The bad news, as you might have guessed, is that you're likely to end up in the Parisian region, often in "difficult" schools, not in the south.

2) Have a French PhD. There may be systems in place if you have a non-French PhD, but if they exist, I don�t know what they are. All the Anglophones I know who've done this have French PhDs.

Unfortunately that's it. There are also lecteur posts (discussed in other threads), but these are for 2 years maximum. That means 2 years in your whole life - you can't do 2 years at one uni then 2 years at another. Just for information, you should be aware that these positions were initially designed for university students studying French in their own country - and from what I've seen, there is a tendency to take under-30s. If you are significantly older than that you might be at a disadvantage. (If any older posters have found lecteur positions, don't hesitate to correct me!)

There's also "vacataire" work, where you are paid by the hour (also discussed elsewhere). This is relatively easy to find, but you're not paid during the holidays.

However, these don't ever lead to a permanent teaching position. Only people with the CAPES, the agreg or a PhD can get a permanent position.

Another option would be to try to find a post in a private higher education establishment. As far as I can see these positions are very rare. (I saw one advertised in Paris last year, but that's all). To be honest though, if you want a permanent post in higher education, this might be your best bet.

I�m afraid that these weren�t really the answers you wanted, but the problem is that the French university system is very closed, and having French qualifications is basically the only way to get a permanent or long-term post. You might find that working in a language school, with �vacataire� hours at the university turns out to be the best option.

Don�t hesitate to ask if anything isn�t clear.

[go2guy]

Great summary Sally05. I should have qualified my assessment about finding work at universities, as you correctly said, ie it will be "vacataire" hours for sure. Having said that, I do personally know a few people who have managed to secure full time positions with institutions of higher learning without going through the CAPES/Agreg hoops. Granted they did it several years ago, when perhaps entrance qualifications were less stringent. Otherwise you're quite right about the closed French system -- it's like that in all work domains. I know people with some very impressive degrees in other fields who can't find jobs because they don't have the requisite French diplomas. It's crazy but it's reality.

[John L]

Thank you, go2guy and sally2005. The advice you gave me was straightforward and very useful. I have no illusions about how challenging a move to southern France will be.

If you don't mind indulging me a bit further, I have a few follow up questions. Though some of the questions may stem from something only one of you discussed, they all are addressed to both of you and, of course, to any other forum participants.

go2guy, you mentioned that Toulouse and Aix are the better places to look for their sheer number of educational institutions. Beyond universities and the Inlingua-type schools, what other institutions did you have in mind? Sally2005, you referred to private higher education establishments. Are you thinking of private universities that don't have as much of the convoluted bureaucracy as the public ones? Can you provide some examples?

It sounds like the procedures for getting a permanent post a French public university are too much for me (us) to handle at this point. Focusing on 'vacataire' work and perhaps work offered at the private institutions mentioned is more realistic. Also, work through the chambers of commerce and GRETAs looks promising. The 'lecteur' posts sound interesting even if they are only for maximum two years. I am 41, however. I am optimistic and a youthful 41, but I know how it works: there are age limits. Does anybody know more about the chances for older applicants?

The 'vacataire' positions sound very much like 'adjunct instructor' positions in the States: pay based on credit hours per semester, paid once a term in a lump sum, no benefits, no long-term security except verbal promises from kind-hearted but powerless supervisors. I did a lot of that in Boston. It wasn't sustainable there because private health insurance is absurdly expensive. France has much better social services. If my wife and I are working full-time in some fashion in the TESOL field, scrambling to get better and better positions, can we honestly make a go of it in France? We don't mind working hard, but we don't want to be in a great place and not enjoy it because we are working too much to make ends meet and are too broke to get out and about. We have a 3-year-old son. We need good, affordable health care for us all, schooling for him, etc. What's the story?

We are planning to leave Japan when my contract ends, which is in August 2008. It's possible that we could stay on another year because it's pretty good here in many respects. So, the move might be delayed until August 2009. We're trying to save money, too. I know that in France contracts generally start in the fall, so arriving in August would allow us to settle in a bit before any work would begin. I assume a lot of the institutions we would contact are closed for the month anyway. Can you offer any advice about particular strategies for approaching the institutions mentioned in this thread? For example, is it worth planning a trip in late spring/early summer to go to these places "on spec," hoping to get ahead in the queue (an expensive proposition for us)? Do you, instead, advise a CV/covering letter campaign around then? Or is it just enough to walk in in early September with a CV in hand? I am not familiar enough with French business practices to know what's expected.

Again, thanks in advance for any advice.

[Nmarie]

[go2guy]

"go2guy, you mentioned that Toulouse and Aix are the better places to look for their sheer number of educational institutions. Beyond universities and the Inlingua-type schools, what other institutions did you have in mind?" ...

I don't know those markets per se but for sure there are "ecoles de commerces" (business schools) and the CCI (Chamber of Commerce), GRETA. It'll all be "vacataire" work again. Another option to "vacataire", by the way, is to work as a "travailleur independent" (self-employed independent contractor - there are pros and cons to both, just depends on how you see yourself evolving: "vacataire" means your basic social deductions are taken at source; T.I. - a bit more complicated as you have to manage all the tax issues, usually with the assistance of an expensive "expert comptable" = expert accountant ... who aren't always so "expert"! I have done both - most recently as T.I. because there are tax treaties between France and Canada which allow me to avoid onerous French social charges while still contributing to my - public - Canadian pension plan, plus it leaves open a move to working directly as a "prestataire" with companies, i.e. selling your services directly instead of via CCIs and the like.) But I digress!

One thing I will say is that these "lecteur" positions seem very fleeting and rarely pay off in anything afterward ... if you really want to work with university-age kids, and not spend the time and resources to penetrate the public domain, then the "grandes ecoles / ecoles de commerce" are probably your best bet. The "go2" resource for finding lists of institutions is basically the Yellow Pages ... www.pagesjaunes.fr - go there, enter the city, "ecoles de commerce", or "formation continue" (continuing education) or "formations en langues" (language training). You'll find all that exists in the cities you're looking at.

As for health services, whether you're a full time employee, vacataire or indie, as an EU citizen you will be entitled to full Securite Sociale rights. However you will have to top that up with a "mutelle" (you can find excellent packages online for these now - Suisse Nationale is a good one) ... probably 40-60 euros per month per person in your case (though I'm not sure how it works for kids). All in all, the health coverage in France is very good - and services prompt!

You've got a big move ahead of you for sure, and I understand your caution but at some point you have to "take the plunge" if this is the place you feel want to be (for whatever reason - and it shouldn't be the money, though not to worry you will certainly make a decent living - all depends on your expertise, personality, drive, etc.). Finally, another thing to think about (and nmarie touched on it) is to expand your "offer" to training applications other than "just English" (ie programs that are offered in English but not "about" English ... pharmaceutical companies have a growing need in this area for example). That's exactly what I'm doing now ... the market is very interesting.

[Nmarie]

[Luder]

Note that working for places like Inlingua is probably a step down from adjuncting.

[bsjess]

The National Education system has already been well-defined above. I would also like to mention that in Paris, we are constantly debating about how "closed" the system is. One English native, who shall remain unnamed here, wrote a book on how she felt she was discriminated against when she failed the Agreg. On one side, the French middle and high school, and even university system appears to be for French nationals only (with a handful of exceptions). On the other side, the Continuing Education sector (teaching adults in businesses) clearly states that they want native English speakers only and French nationals need not apply.

TESOL France (www.tesol-france.org) is in the process of organizing a debate on this very subject for 2008.

The reality:
Finding a teaching job can be easy, but working conditions may be harsh. Most teachers work for two, three, or even six different schools and can have more than one permanent contract. Salaries are as consistent as the weather in Paris. This juggling of hours is necessary to earn an appropriate living in France. Many compare it to an actor's life -- while you're on the job you're already looking for your next one. Those who do it claim they prefer this to sitting in an office day after day. In short, it takes a passionate, creative, and driven person to be an English teacher in France. But those who succeed wouldn't trade it for the world.

[sheema.doshi]

deleted post

[medusa]

Hello John,

You've certainly got a lot to offer any employer with those credentials. I think go2guy and Sally have given you great advice, as the others have too.
You asked about health insurance, for example, if both you and your wife are looking for teaching position,s it might be a good option for one of you (perhaps your wife if she has a less 'appealing' prof. profile?) to take up one of the language school positions. It may not be superb, BUT she would automatically get a company 'Mutuelle' (go2 explained this) which is also avaialble to all her 'ayants droits' ie you and your child. This can be very useful, even if she only has a few hours a week in a language school (style Berlitz, Inlingua).

The cost of living in France, particularly the south, can vary hugely. Anywhere along the south coast will be much more expensive than say Toulouse or Bordeaux. Simple living costs, rent etc is much higher, so it is also a factor to consider.

You should also check out the French job centre website : www.anpe.fr
You can search by area, town etc and use a key word. Often 'anglais' is good of you look in one small area!
You can see the diverse options available in your field, and many Universities post jobs here, especially when they are last minute ones. It is not irregular to have lectuers and the like leave after one week due to homesickness or other.

Don't neglect the in house training jobs offered by big International companies settled in France. For many of these companies, the working language is English, and an on site trainer is required full time. Depending on the company, it can be a great way to learn a new field too! For example, I know of at least two in the Bordeaux area who do this. I'm sure there are many more.

All of the other posters seem to be based in different towns so I think we all have our own local examples. If you'd like anymore info on the South West, area around Bordeaux, I'dbe happy to help.

ALos, with your connections and experience, you could set up your own teacher training course or your own language school...... Ever considered that?



Another position held in Universities is called "Maitre de Conference". Again, not easy to obtain, but all Uni's offering English studies need one. It is a step or two above a lectuer.

[John L]

I have been away from the site for a while. I find that there have been some very interesting postings. Thank you all for the helpful information. I have to read through it all more carefully and check out the websites and organizations mentioned.

The sense I have of the move to France is that it will be a scramble for a steady work life and a real slog through red tape. I'm not discouraged, but realize that we need to have more savings to make the leap. Part of the reason I have been too busy to follow this thread closely is that my wife has started teaching again to help build the cash pile. We imagine that we can make the move in late summer 2009. Any sooner would be too stressful.

Thanks again for the info.

John