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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Horror stories and lack of z-visas |
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Well, I think it is time for my second leaving of Dave's.
I really would like anyone reading this post to take note; every horror story (not oh the school wants me to do this or that, or not give me what they should)
Every true horror story here in the past four months or so has involved two parts ... the person not dealing directly with the school at which he would be teaching, and of course,
no z-visa
So Clark Griswold doesn't understand the negative attitude towards recruiters. Really it is a negative attitude towards those who willing, for the money, to be part of this process. Any recruiter who doesn't ensure that the laowai comes on a z-visa ... in my mind is scum just caring about the easy money. Any one who supports or recommends a recruiter or middleman such as this is also scum.
One thing I will say at Dave's ... no such recommenations.
If a laowai purposely comes to teach without a z-visa, for the purpose of evading the legal obligations and requirements of Chinese law, in my mind this is pretty scummy too, making it worse for those of us here who care, who want things to be decent or better. You just care about yourself.
And for any laowai foolish or brave enough to come without a z-visa .... virtually every horror story I have heard centered on these two facts ... no invitation letter, no direct contact with the school itself
Well, it has been nice, often enough. See y'all sometome later perhaps. for know, I'm out of here. Be good! (of course I tell my two cats to be good ... they also never listen |
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AussieGuyInChina
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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As I have already declared, under the thread, "Converting L to Z visas", my latest 'L' was changed to a 'Z' here in Guangdong in mid August 2007. My February 'L' visa was changed to a "Z" in Wuxi, Jiangsu in February 2007. In February 2003, my first 'L' visa was changed to a 'Z' in Chongqing.
I used a recruiting agent to secure the Wuxi job, and another agent to secure my current job. On both occasions, excellent service was provided. It may, or may not, be relevant that both the Wuxi position and the Guangzhou job were / are not typical, run-of-the-mill, 6,000 RMB per month, teaching positions. Perhaps the level of service a recruiter provides correlates with the salary on offer (and, therefore, the amount of commission the agent receives).
I have on file, emails from 4 government universities in which they explain how and why obtaining the PSB pre-employment approval letter (necessary to secure a Z visa) now takes 3 to 4 weeks in some provinces. Of the 4, 3 insisted that correct procedures be followed and the other (government university) suggested an initial arrival on an L visa followed by a fully-funded visa run to Hong Kong, 3 to 4 weeks after arrival, because they needed (wanted) a foreign teacher to start immediately.
China is a vast, and very diverse land. And, despite the fact that China is currently the largest user of concrete in the world, nothing in China is concrete! |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I would never endorse the notion of arriving in China on an L visa to seek teaching employment.
That opens the door to being vulnerable, sometimes it can happen without any malice or intention on the part of the school - stuff just happens.
On the other hand, I recognize that China is vast and the rules are applied without uniformity. What will fly today in one place will be utterly impossible in another. And sometimes, that other place is located just across the street with better/worse guanxie than your school.
It's a bit like driving and the wear of a seat belt. You can quote statistics until you are blue in the face to show why seat belts are prudent and necessary. Then someone will pipe up to tell about how their unbuckled uncle Harry was thrown clear of a fiery wreck thanks to his never wearing a seat belt.
Some folks simply don't understand the plural of anecdote isn't data.
There's an old saying about advice, "Wise men don't need it; fools won't heed it."
Let the frolic resume. |
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Worldly
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 74
Location: The Cosmos
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| AussieGuyInChina wrote: |
I used a recruiting agent to secure the Wuxi job, and another agent to secure my current job. On both occasions, excellent service was provided. |
For the benefit of the forum, did you identify, by name, the recruiters/agents responsible for the excellent service?
Since the PM function is disabled, such information is important to forum members, especially to the skeptics.
If the identity of the recruiters/agents was provided in your previous post, please provide a link.
Thank you. |
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AussieGuyInChina
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Some folks simply don't understand the plural of anecdote isn't data. |
It goes without saying that you're fully entitled to express your opinion, but why use misdirection when doing so?
I stated facts; nothing anecdotal! Or, are you implying that I lied?
| Quote: |
| For the benefit of the forum, did you identify, by name, the recruiters/agents responsible for the excellent service? |
No, I didn't. On this forum I am willing to provide only general information; nothing that might provide fruitcakes with the means by which to interfere in my life.
| Quote: |
| Since the PM function is disabled � |
???? I received a PM yesterday, and replied to it today! |
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Worldly
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 74
Location: The Cosmos
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| AussieGuyInChina wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For the benefit of the forum, did you identify, by name, the recruiters/agents responsible for the excellent service? |
No, I didn't. On this forum I am willing to provide only general information; nothing that might provide fruitcakes with the means by which to interfere in my life. |
OK, that's your choice and prerogative, but I'm unable to understand how identifying recruiters/agents who provided excellent service can interfere with your life? You have a fictitious title (AussieGuyInChina). Perhaps you can explain it.
| Quote: |
| Since the PM function is disabled � |
| AussieGuyInChina wrote: |
| ???? I received a PM yesterday, and replied to it today! |
I stand corrected. It works today. Two prior attempts were unsuccessful for me.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=56856 |
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AussieGuyInChina
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| but I'm unable to understand how identifying recruiters/agents who provided excellent service can interfere with your life? You have a fictitious title (AussieGuyInChina). Perhaps you can explain it. |
"Hello. Acme Recruting Agency. How may I help you?"
"Hello. A guy I know told me good things about your agency so I was wondering whether you could help me find a well-paid job."
"Yes, certainly! We currently have several good university positions paying 5-6,000 per month."
"No! This guy said you got him a job with a high salary."
"Guy? What guy?
"An Australian guy. He's in Guangzhou now and he said you got him a high salary job in Wuxi, in February. You know, he used to work in Chongqing."
"Oh! You mean Joe Black?"
"Yeah, that's him."
My first name is not so common. After learning how to pronounce it, Chinese people tend to remember it, and remember me. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
| Every true horror story here in the past four months or so has involved two parts ... the person not dealing directly with the school at which he would be teaching, and of course |
That is typical anti-recruiter hype and as usual it is an emotional claim with not factual basis.
The following threads all made recently point toward less than positive experiences with schools not recruiters:
Heilongjiang Modern Higher Education Training Centre
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=56840
My School and Ethics
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=56855
IBS School
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=56613
Yangshuo Schools
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=56441
The only thread here recently specifically mentioning problems with Z visas was this one:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=56467
And in that one the school, the recruiter, and the teacher were equally to blame. Funny how some people overlook the responsibilities of the school and the teacher when it comes to illegal work, and try to pin 100% of the blame on the recruiter if things don�t go to plan.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| So Clark Griswold doesn't understand the negative attitude towards recruiters. |
Actually I have a pretty good understanding of why some people are anti-recruiter but understanding them is exactly why I don�t agree with them.
The fact is that generally speaking most people who use recruiters do so for the fact that they are seen as a soft landing for people new to the country. I think that they certainly can offer exactly this. The problem is that by catering to people who are new to China you also become the target for complaints from people who go through the culture shock that we all go through.
What I find most interesting is that in all of the talk about recruiters you have to two very vocal sides:
Anti-recruiter types � always make broad statements about recruiters in general rather than individual companies or individuals. The group is made up largely of people who have not had any personal experience with said recruiters but are willing to jump on the band wagon at the drop of a hat and with total disregard to the facts. They are also the same people who disappear from a discussion (or perhaps the whole forum in this case) when they are called upon to accept corrections to their flawed assumptions. This includes a sub-group who have used recruiters but do not qualify for legal employment as foreign English teachers in China such as non-degree holders and non-native English speakers. The argument from anti-recruitment types is never reasoned and never supported by logical argument.
Non-anti-recruiter types � almost always restrict their comments to specific recruitment companies and give reasoned argument for their opinions. The group is made up of people who have either had a positive experience with a recruiter/s or those who have the commonsense to realize that just because someone is in a certain line of work does not make them the same as the worst people in that line of work. The argument from non-anti recruiter types tends to be more reasoned and contain more specific and sensible information.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| Any recruiter who doesn't ensure that the laowai comes on a z-visa ... in my mind is scum just caring about the easy money. |
You fail to address the fact that around 80% of schools also encourage foreign teachers to arrive first and do the Z visa later. And also the fact that plenty of foreigners choose to come here first without a Z visa.. I find it a bit arrogant that someone thinks that he can speak for everyone in this regard.
If it is important for an individual to have a Z visa arranged before he or she comes to China then he or she can insist on that and get it arranged regardless of whether he or she is dealing through a recruiter or dealing direct with a school. So clearly this is not a recruiter vs. schools issue but one of whether or not to arrange a Z visa before arrival. There are pluses and minuses both ways so it comes down to an individuals personal choice here.
Certainly though for an individual dealing through a recruiter it does make some sense to come first and check out the schools that the recruiter has to offer first. If you don�t like the look of the first then you can easily move on to the second or the third etc. If you were dealing direct with a school then it makes less sense, but still practical, as if the school is not what you expected then you need to start from scratch! The important thing is to ensure that your paperwork in processed BEFORE you start to work for the school. That is the key to success here - not the furphy of whether or not you deal through a recruiter!
| arioch36 wrote: |
| Any one who supports or recommends a recruiter or middleman such as this is also scum. |
That is just ignorance mixed with a dash of arrogance!
| arioch36 wrote: |
| If a laowai purposely comes to teach without a z-visa, for the purpose of evading the legal obligations and requirements of Chinese law, in my mind this is pretty scummy too, making it worse for those of us here who care, who want things to be decent or better. You just care about yourself. |
I assume that you would also include in the above individuals who do not legally qualify to be foreign teachers of English in China! This thread was started due to discussions that were had in another thread and I am pretty sure that both complainants in that other thread do not qualify to teach here legally. They should have known this and have no place to be complaining about this after the fact. I find this kind of typical of people who come out against recruiters. They are happy to go with the recruiter when they think that they can get some advantage, but as soon as things don�t go their way they try to lay all of the blame on the recruiter. Not very honest nor mature in my opinion.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| And for any laowai foolish or brave enough to come without a z-visa .... virtually every horror story I have heard centered on these two facts ... no invitation letter, no direct contact with the school itself |
There are certainly some complaints along those lines, but they are not necessarily in the majority as far as legitimate complaints. I would say that the legitimate complaints are actually skewed more in favor of the schools as they are the ones that generally pay or fail to pay the teacher, and they are also the ones who need to apply for/ or fail to apply for the Z visa.
Arioch36, as they say, when the going gets tough the tough get going! Don�t let the door hit your rump on your way out!
Worldy, while I agree that it is great to get specific information about schools and recruiters including names, we have to respect Aussieguy's right not to name these companies. It is unfortunate but totally true that specific names may leave the door open to him being identified and he quite rightly does not want that. We have the behavior of some fellow foreign teachers to thank for that. Another side is that if he did name them and then someone did not enjoy their time with that company that the person would more than likely come back here and blame AussieGuy so what's in it for him except for trouble! |
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Worldly
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 74
Location: The Cosmos
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Worldy, while I agree that it is great to get specific information about schools and recruiters including names, we have to respect Aussieguy's right not to name these companies. It is unfortunate but totally true that specific names may leave the door open to him being identified and he quite rightly does not want that. |
I agree with the rights of privacy, and anyone wishing to maintain anonymity, including Aussie Guy. To reiterate, I was asking for names of reputable recruiters, not names of schools.
For all of your positive commentary and defense of recruiters, why is it necessary to gamble on a recruiter, or pay someone, like you, for names of reputable recruiters? If someone pays for the information, and is deceived or treated unprofessionally, should they expect a refund?
From my perspective, until I see direct evidence of a "named" recruiter providing genuine customer service, I will remain skeptical. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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AussieGuyInChina:
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TeatimeofSoul: "Some folks simply don't understand the plural of anecdote isn't data."
It goes without saying that you're fully entitled to express your opinion, but why use misdirection when doing so?
I stated facts; nothing anecdotal! Or, are you implying that I lied? |
I don't think anecdote means what you think it means.
| Quote: |
An anecdote is a short tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident. .. An anecdote is always based on real life, an incident involving actual persons, whether famous or not, in real places. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote |
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AussieGuyInChina
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the tip, ToS. Note that I used the word 'anecdotal'? That was because I assumed you meant anecdotal rather than anecdote. Whilst I thought you were confused about the meaning of each word, I did give you credit for recognizing that my r�sum� was not merely an interesting or amusing tale, as is typically related during a public speech. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem is that by catering to people who are new to China you also become the target for complaints from people who go through the culture shock that we all go through. |
the truth is the �normal� China recruiter caters for any breathing white skin that has the inclination - but not any experience or specific qualification - to play at being an EFL teacher. The Cheaper they can get these white skins the better - and indeed appearance seems to be the most important factor in this game.
Result - a recruiting industry that mainly focuses on feeding cheap white skins to a money hungry EFL machine. No wonder standards in China EFL are so low, and so many unsuitable types - who soon find themselves in one or another type of difficulty - are attracted to this job!!!!!
Last edited by vikuk on Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ispeakgoodenglish
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 177
Location: Guangzhou, North of the Zhujiang
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Meow............ |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Worldly wrote: |
| I agree with the rights of privacy, and anyone wishing to maintain anonymity, including Aussie Guy. To reiterate, I was asking for names of reputable recruiters, not names of schools. |
I don't think it matters whether it was the name of the school or the recruiter that you asked for - either way I don't disagree that it would have been good to have gotten those names. But you went onto question AussieGuy's polite refusal not to post that information and I posted in agreement with him even though I too would be happy to see the actual names here!
| Worldly wrote: |
| For all of your positive commentary and defense of recruiters, why is it necessary to gamble on a recruiter, or pay someone, like you, for names of reputable recruiters? |
First off my comments only appear positive because they are made in a see of negativity. If you look at my posts you will actually see that they are impartial on the subject as I am not at all recommending recruiters over direct contact with schools. I am just questioning the 'argument' that all recruiters should be avoided as some of them are bad. Some schools are bad too so does that mean that all schools should be avoided? I doubt that you think so - so why the double standard here!
Secondly a recruiter is not necessary to find work in China. I have never stated that it was necessary and have in fact repeatedly stated that it isn't necessary. The fact remains however that some people like to use recruiters and whether you or I agree with that they will use a recruiter. I also believe that there are some advantages to going through a recruiter just as there are some advantages to going to direct. It is up to the individual to decide what is best for him or her in their individual case. This is why I am involved with a site that gives them the opportunity to go through a recruiter and/or go direct to schools!
| Worldly wrote: |
| If someone pays for the information, and is deceived or treated unprofessionally, should they expect a refund? |
I do understand your 'disagreement; with the way that we do things over there as far as paid membership but I actually think that the system is very fair. If you do not personally feel that the information is worthwhile then you do not need to pay for access to the database. We don't see it as payment for information but instead support to keep the site going. I am sure that we all appreciate the value of such information and the free websites keep coming and going. We teachers involved with the site previously bore all of the costs, but as usage grew and the demands upon us grew also we decided to make it a user pays site with the option for those who contribute to the site to get free access. It is all about supporting the site and not about the money.
As far as refunds, well I wonder does Daves offer refunds to schools that advertise here but end up with a dud foreign teacher? I doubt it as obviously common sense would tell us that the school is responsible for the actual vetting of applicants and if they make a bad choice then they need to wear the consequences of that. The only difference with our site would be that we are actually willing to put details of the teachers experience on our site for others to see and if the employer is a repeat offender then they are no longer welcome to post job vacancies on our site. We are not babysitters, but we do try our best to provide useful information so that adults can make informed decisions!
| Worldly wrote: |
| From my perspective, until I see direct evidence of a "named" recruiter providing genuine customer service, I will remain skeptical. |
No offence but I don't think that anyone is trying to convince you that you should use a recruiter. Being skeptical about something, and posting that it should be avoided at all costs are two totally different things. No one is going to have issue with you raising specific concerns about specific situations, but as soon as you start making generalizations I for one will question the wisdom and value of that. |
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AussieGuyInChina
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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