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caliph
Joined: 05 Jun 2006 Posts: 218 Location: Iceland
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: Saudi King Tries to Grow Modern Ideas in Desert . Good Luck! |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/world/middleeast/26saudi.html?hp
October 26, 2007
Saudi King Tries to Grow Modern Ideas in Desert
By THANASSIS CAMBANIS
JIDDA, Saudi Arabia, Oct. 25 � On a marshy peninsula 50 miles from this Red Sea port, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is staking $12.5 billion on a gargantuan bid to catch up with the West in science and technology.
Between an oil refinery and the sea, the monarch is building from scratch a graduate research institution that will have one of the 10 largest endowments in the world, worth more than $10 billion.
Its planners say men and women will study side by side in an enclave walled off from the rest of Saudi society, the country�s notorious religious police will be barred and all religious and ethnic groups will be welcome in a push for academic freedom and international collaboration sure to test the kingdom�s cultural and religious limits.
This undertaking is directly at odds with the kingdom�s religious establishment, which severely limits women�s rights and rejects coeducation and robust liberal inquiry as unthinkable.
For the new institution, the king has cut his own education ministry out the loop, hiring the state-owned oil giant Saudi Aramco to build the campus, create its curriculum and attract foreigners.
Supporters of what is to be called the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, or Kaust, wonder whether the king is simply building another gated island to be dominated by foreigners, like the compounds for oil industry workers that have existed here for decades, or creating an institution that will have a real impact on Saudi society and the rest of the Arab world.
�There are two Saudi Arabias,� said Jamal Khashoggi, the editor of Al Watan, a newspaper. �The question is which Saudi Arabia will take over.�
The king has broken taboos, declaring that the Arabs have fallen critically behind much of the modern world in intellectual achievement and that his country depends too much on oil and not enough on creating wealth through innovation.
�There is a deep knowledge gap separating the Arab and Islamic nations from the process and progress of contemporary global civilization,� said Abdallah S. Jumah, the chief executive of Saudi Aramco. �We are no longer keeping pace with the advances of our era.�
Traditional Saudi practice is on display at the biggest public universities, where the Islamic authorities vet the curriculum, medical researchers tread carefully around controversial subjects like evolution, and female and male students enter classrooms through separate doors and follow lectures while separated by partitions.
[u]Old-fashioned values even seeped into the carefully staged groundbreaking ceremony on Sunday for King Abdullah�s new university, at which organizers distributed an issue of the magazine The Economist with a special advertisement for the university wrapped around the cover. State censors had physically torn from each copy an article about Saudi legal reform titled �Law of God Versus Law of Man,� leaving a jagged edge.
[/u]
Despite the obstacles, the king intends to make the university a showcase for modernization. The festive groundbreaking and accompanying symposium about the future of the modern university were devised partly as a recruiting tool for international academics.
�Getting the faculty will be the biggest challenge,� said Ahmed F. Ghoniem, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who is consulting for the new university. �That will make it or break it.� Professor Ghoniem has advised the new university to lure international academics with laboratory facilities and grants they cannot find at home, but he also believes that established professors will be reluctant to leave their universities for a small enclave in the desert.
�You have to create an environment where you can connect to the outside world,� said Professor Ghoniem, who is from Egypt. �You cannot work in isolation.�
He admitted that even though he admired the idea of the new university, he would be unlikely to abandon his post at M.I.T. to move to Saudi Arabia.
Festivities at the construction site on Sunday for 1,500 dignitaries included a laser light show and a mockup of the planned campus that filled an entire room. The king laid a crystal cornerstone into a stainless steel shaft on wheels.
Cranes tore out mangroves and pounded the swampland with 20-ton blocks into a surface firm enough to build the campus on. Inside a tent, the king, his honor guard wearing flowing robes and curved daggers, and an array of Aramco officials in suits took to a shiny stage lighted with green and blue neon tubing, like an MTV awards show. Mist from dry ice shrouded the stage, music blared in surround sound, and holographic projections served as a backdrop to some of the speeches.
From a laconic monarch known for his austerity, the pomp, along with a rare speech by the king himself, was intended to send a strong signal, according to the team charged with building and staffing the new campus within two years.
The king is lavishing the institution not only with money, but also with his full political endorsement, intended to stave off internal challenges from conservatives and to win over foreign scholars who doubt that academic freedom can thrive here.
The new project is giving hope to Saudi scholars who until the king�s push to reform education in the last few years have endured stagnant research budgets and continue to face extensive government red tape.
�Because Aramco is founding the university, I believe it will have freedom,� said Abdulmalik A. Aljinaidi, dean of the research and consultation institute at King Abdulaziz University, Jidda�s biggest, with more than 40,000 students. �For Kaust to succeed, it will have to be free of all the restrictions and bureaucracy we face as a public university.�
Even in the most advanced genetics labs at King Abdulaziz, the women wear full face coverings, and female students can meet with male advisers only in carefully controlled public �free zones� like the library. Scientists there tread carefully when they do research in genetics, stem cells or evolution, for fear of offending Islamic social mores.
Even in Jidda, the kingdom�s most liberal city, a status rooted in its history as a trading outpost, change comes slowly. This month the governor allowed families to celebrate the post-Ramadan Id al-Fitr holiday in public, effectively allowing men and women to socialize publicly on the same streets for the first time.
The religious police were accused of beating a man to death because he was suspected of selling alcohol. Conservatives have fended off efforts by women to secure the right to drive or to run for office, although women have made considerable gains in access to segregated education and workplaces.
Against this backdrop, said Mr. Khashoggi, the newspaper editor, the king has conceived of the new university as a liberalizing counterweight, whose success depends on how much it engages the rest of Saudi society. �Nobody wants to live in a ghetto, even a nice one,� Mr. Khashoggi said. �As a Saudi, I say, let�s open up.�
Upon completion, the energy-efficient campus will house 20,000 faculty and staff members, students and their families. Social rules will be more relaxed, as they are in the compounds where foreign oil workers live; women will be allowed to drive, for example. But the kingdom�s laws will still apply: Israelis, barred by law from visiting Saudi Arabia, will not be able to collaborate with the university. And one staple of campus life worldwide will be missing: alcohol.
The university president will be a foreigner, and the faculty members and graduate students at first will be overwhelmingly foreign as well. Generous scholarships will finance the 2,000 graduate students; planners expect the Saudi share of the student body to increase over the years as scholarships aimed at promising current undergraduates help groom them for graduate studies at the new university.
The university�s entire model is built around partnerships with other international universities, and faculty members are expected to have permanent bases at other research institutions abroad.
The university will also rely on a new free-market model. The faculty members will not have tenure, and almost all of them will have joint appointments. While the university will initially be awash in money, its faculty and graduate students will still have to compete with top international institutions for the limited pool of private money that underwrites most graduate research.
Suhair el-Qurashi, dean of the private all-female Dar Al Hekma College, often attacked as �bad� and �liberal,� said a vigorous example of free-thinking at the university would embolden the many Saudis who back the king�s quest to reform long-stagnant higher education.
�The king knows he will face some backlash and bad publicity,� Ms. Qurashi said. �I think the system is moving in the right direction.� |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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medical researchers tread carefully around controversial subjects like evolution, |
Thank god something like this would never happen in America!
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female and male students enter classrooms through separate doors and follow lectures while separated by partitions. |
This is typical of the sloppy research and superficial 'knowledge' of most "Western" journalists in the Kingdom. I do not know of a single public (or even private) university in KSA where men and women are taught on the same campus. Can anyone here think of one?
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women will be allowed to drive, for example. But the kingdom�s laws will still apply |
Bit of a contradiction, no? If women are allowed to drive in this ghetto-"university", then clearly at least one of the Kingdom's laws will not apply.
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Israelis, barred by law from visiting Saudi Arabia, will not be able to collaborate with the university. |
Don't you just know that for the NYT hack, this is the only real crime?
But, putting aside for a moment the all too easy sport of picking holes in US mainstream "journalism", I really don't think this 'university' is going to make any difference to Saudi society. It just seems like another no expenses spared showpiece in the manner of the various "knowledge cities" favoured by the smaller Gulf states. It will be carefully cordoned off from Saudi society, and intended mainly to impress visiting foreign dignatries and ill-informed journos like Cambanis (?) The relatively small number of elite, liberal Saudis who might be expected to attend this university will still prefer to go to the US or Europe, or at least the males will.
If there were a real will to encourage 'free thinking' among Saudis, this would have to begin with a radical curriculum re-think in ordinary, boring, primary schools, not by building a handful of walled-off, glamorous private unis. It would also have to be backed up with an open media and the beginnings of a civil society. This latest venture is just another example of the Gulf preference for high-profile - but essentially vacuous - third-level educational institutions as a poor, but superficially impressive, substitute for genuine educational reform. |
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shadowfax

Joined: 31 May 2003 Posts: 212 Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Suhair Al-Kurashi speaketh sooth. The mobbled queen remains the sour eternal cynic. |
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007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 2684 Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Saudi King Tries to Grow Modern Ideas in Desert. |
Modern ideas are not to be grown in the desert!
Modern Ideas have to be grown in the �backward-mentality� of some people of the desert, including Uncle Bandar and his tribe!
Sometimes Insanity is saner than the wisdom of intelligence.
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�There are two Saudi Arabias,� said Jamal Khashoggi, the editor of Al Watan, a newspaper. �The question is which Saudi Arabia will take over.� |
Of course, there are two Saudi Arabias, Saudi Arabia of Uncle Bandar, and Saudi Arabia of Khashoggi, and I see in my dreams that Saudi Arabia of Uncle Bandar is taking and will take over for at least the next century!
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..where the Islamic authorities vet the curriculum, medical researchers tread carefully around controversial subjects like evolution.. |
Don�t you know that Uncle Bush is promoting for �Intelligent Design� theory to be taught alongside the �Evolution� theory in US schools! So, I see no difference in the two systems about the controversial subject of �evolution�. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Some bizarre comments. Evolution is controversial in America but not in Saudi.
There has been a lot of hype in the local Saudi press. Certainly the university could be a centre of research for the whole Middle East, if, as seems the intention, most of the students will be non-Saudis. It's relationship to the rest of the country is likely to be a different matter.
The real problems with the Saudi education system, bureaucracy, apathy and inefficency aren't mentioned. And I doubt Aramco is the organization to solve them. It is a large lumbering corporation, like all oil companies, and I would not trust General Motors to set up a competitor to Harvard.
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If women are allowed to drive in this ghetto-"university", then clearly at least one of the Kingdom's laws will not apply. |
There is no law I know of that says women can't drive, surprisingly enough. |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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There is no law I know of that says women can't drive, surprisingly enough. |
As I understand it, the restriction on women driving prior to 1990 was due to social taboo, not an explicit law. However, when the driving demonstration of that year backfired spectacularly, the result was that the ban on women driving was enshrined in law.
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Certainly the university could be a centre of research for the whole Middle East, if, as seems the intention, most of the students will be non-Saudis |
Apart from the obvious question of whether the social/legal/educational climate of KSA is the right place to build an international research centre, who is going to study there? Visa regulations being what they are, it's not going to be easy for students other than those who are the sons and daughters of resident expats to come here. But even if those regulations were relaxed, this university seems like a highly unattractive destination for anyone who wanted to be on the cutting edge of research, even by ME standards. The type of inquiring, progressive minded people a top research centre would need to attract will not exactly jump at the chance to study in an at least semi-segregated gated community in a land not exactly known for promoting scientific inquiry. Such students, assuming they want or need to stay in the ME, would be far more likely to opt for one of the established unis in Beirut or Cairo instead. |
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globalnomad2

Joined: 23 Jul 2005 Posts: 562
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Cleo went off the scope and compared apples and oranges. Evolution is NOT controversial in US universities and colleges--only in some school districts. Get your facts straight before making the usual apologist snide and arrogant remarks. And I'll trust the NY Times before the London one any day. |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Wow - someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, eh? The sense of defensiveness is palpable.
Steady up, honey pie, I wasn't suggesting that "evolution is controversial' in US universities nor did I ever refer to any such 'fact'. It may suit you to believe otherwise, but evolution is a controversial subject in a considerable part of US society, evidence of the religiosity which makes the US perhaps unique among "Western" nations.
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the usual apologist snide and arrogant remarks. |
Wow! More adjectives than a tabloid hack! apologist??? For what, exactly?
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And I'll trust the NY Times before the London one any day. |
Would you? That's really interesting, no doubt you trusted them about Iraq being laden with WMD about this time five years ago. Not sure what your comment has to do with this particular discussion, however: Personally, I don't think either rag is worth peeling potatoes on. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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And I'll trust the NY Times before the London one any day. |
You may be right but only because The Times has turned into a Murdoch rag.
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However, when the driving demonstration of that year backfired spectacularly, the result was that the ban on women driving was enshrined in law. |
I don't know. I thought they couldn't drive because they couldn't get a driving license (which wouldn't apply off road and on private land, which explains Bedouin women driving pickups and western women driving within compounds). Don't know the full details though.
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Visa regulations being what they are, it's not going to be easy for students other than those who are the sons and daughters of resident expats to come here. |
If they get a scholarship they're given the visa. We've got a fair number of Yemeni post-grads on scholarships here at KFUPM. |
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trapezius

Joined: 13 Aug 2006 Posts: 1670 Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Cleopatra in her last 2 paragraphs of her 1st post basically said what I think of this KAUST.
There was so much fuss about this in Arab News that it seemed as if nothing more important was happening in the world for 3 days, when it (KAUST) commanded the headline for those days.
Here is something ironic:
Last Monday, the King's motorcade passed through Madinah Road in Jeddah heading to KAUST to inaugrate it. Outside Jeddah city, a checkpost was closed off to traffic for an hour as a precautionary measure. Because of that, many students on their way to CBA (College of Business Administration), a private business college 30 kms outisde Jeddah, were held up in their cars, and missed classes.
Augurs well for this country, doesn't it?
BTW, the interim president of KAUST wants it to be as good as MIT in a FEW to SEVERAL YEARS. And he even said in an interview that "we know it took MIT several decades to reach that level."
That's the Gulf Arab mentality... with money, everything can be achieved. MIT has taken 2 CENTURIES to reach the level it is at, in a FREE THINKING society, and they want KAUST to reach the same level in A DECADE or 2 in a SEVERELY INTELLECTUALLY/ACADEMICALLY/SOCIALLY STIFLED (by force) SOCIETY.
Several great world-class European and Asian institutions (and American as well) dare not even compare themselves to MIT, but KAUST will be there knocking on its doors in a couple of decades!!!
(not to even mention the issue of who will study there and how exactly a bunch of foreigners--if they can get them--studying and doing research there will benefit this country to any palpable extent)
Good luck!
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If there were a real will to encourage 'free thinking' among Saudis, this would have to begin with a radical curriculum re-think in ordinary, boring, primary schools, not by building a handful of walled-off, glamorous private unis. It would also have to be backed up with an open media and the beginnings of a civil society. |
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Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003 Posts: 3657 Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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they couldn't drive because they couldn't get a driving license (which wouldn't apply off road and on private land, which explains Bedouin women driving pickups and western women driving within compounds). |
Surely the normal way of defining who is or is not permitted to drive is through the issuing of a driver's licence? If women are categorically denied these, then legally they are not permitted to drive. The fact that some may do so in the desert or on private lands is neither here nor there.
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We've got a fair number of Yemeni post-grads on scholarships here at KFUPM. |
Sure - but with all due respect, a handful of Yemenis on scholarships does not a cutting-edge educational establishment make.
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the interim president of KAUST wants it to be as good as MIT in a FEW to SEVERAL YEARS. |
This is absolutely classic. Have you got a direct quote? |
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veiledsentiments

Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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trapezius wrote: |
BTW, the interim president of KAUST wants it to be as good as MIT in a FEW to SEVERAL YEARS. And he even said in an interview that "we know it took MIT several decades to reach that level." |
Whenever I read a comment like that I always wonder... does anyone reading or hearing this seriously believe a daft comment like that? Is the person who said it actually serious? Clueless or just milking it for all it is worth in petrodollars?
But then I remember sitting in management meetings in the Gulf and trying not to laugh out loud. Lots of wishful thinking...
VS |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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The fact that some may do so in the desert or on private lands is neither here nor there.
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Except that it was you who insisted in a previous post that it was.
Last edited by Stephen Jones on Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chollimaspeed

Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Posts: 120
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Cleopatra wrote: |
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And I'll trust the NY Times before the London one any day. |
Would you? That's really interesting, no doubt you trusted them about Iraq being laden with WMD about this time five years ago. Not sure what your comment has to do with this particular discussion, however: Personally, I don't think either rag is worth peeling potatoes on. |
George W to Cleopatra: "It's Bin Laden not being laden"! |
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007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 2684 Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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chollimaspeed wrote: |
Cleopatra wrote: |
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And I'll trust the NY Times before the London one any day. |
Would you? That's really interesting, no doubt you trusted them about Iraq being laden with WMD about this time five years ago. Not sure what your comment has to do with this particular discussion, however: Personally, I don't think either rag is worth peeling potatoes on. |
George W to Cleopatra: "It's Bin Laden not being laden"! |
According to my humble English, �Iraq being laden� means �Iraq being loaded� and not �Iraq Bin laden'.
King Cobra to Uncle Bush: "stop mangling the English language".
Uncle George W. Bush told a group of New York school kids on Wednesday: "Childrens do learn."!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2623880720070926 |
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