Job Discussion Forums

[soapdodger]

Well, I'm not actually suggesting that you do, unless of course you've got a good reason, but recent posts with a legal bent made me wonder about how many people out there in Cafeland have tried, successfully or not, to get legal redress from an EFL employer. Over the years I've heard about a collective of Italian teachers who took the university system to the European Court (I think) over pay and conditions, had a female colleague who successfully took a French school-owner to court for assault ( physical, not sexual, in front of students) and another who took on a Polish school for trying to nick material for publication which he had copyrighted.

In my experience around 50% of EFL schools are begging to be defendants, although that fluctuates up and down depending on country, for a multiplicity of wrongs done to teachers. I have a feeling that most of them get away scot-free, for various reasons. It would be interesting to hear any experiences, which might encourage some mistreated people to seek some sort of justice where they might not have bothered/thought it possible, and also to steer clear of getting involved in disputes that are only going to end in tears and a large legal bill.

[John Hall]

...add to that list the approximately 7000 Nova teachers in Japan who haven't received their paychecks recently.

[spiral78]

I recall an American teacher a year or so ago on the Czech forum who wanted to sue a school - but the kicker was that she didn't have legal residency/work papers, and in those circumstances the court was
1. highly unlikely to even hear her case and
2. even more unlikely to rule in her favor, assuming that she had good cause (she may have had - I don't remember the details)

I reckon that if the harm you want to bring before a court happened to a fully legal, recognized worker and was some kind of clear breach of contract, you'd probably have a decent chance in the Czech Rep, though.

[soapdodger]

Spiral, I would guess the story you mentioned was pre-2004 EU accession. That kicked alot of highly questionable judicial practise in to touch as new members slowly (very slowly in some cases) realise they can't play by their own rules. That's a point worth pushing in Central Europe when you get confronted by asinine bureaucracy.

[spiral78]

No, I've checked and it was actually the 2005/2006 school year. And I'm pretty sure if you're technically working illegally, this would still be the case - not only on the CR, but likely in the 'old' EU as well.

Still, your point's valid regarding questionable judicial practice and the evoluyion of legal practice.

[soapdodger]

Yep, Spiral, totally agree about the legality aspect. My advice to anyone is always be legal, and don't rely on schools to do it for you - get a savvy student to help you with the process. I can never understand why, when there are so many destinations worldwide , people choose ones where they may have to be illegal.
I say don't rely on schools for obvious reasons, but here's a funny one. A couple of years ago I discovered by chance that I have a PESEL in Poland. This is more or less permanent residence/citizenship and is very hard for a non-Pole to obtain. I haven't the faintest idea where it came from but probably a school, although I have worked outside the EFL sector. Whoever did it was well smart!

[Stephen Jones]

In Spain the law was that if you were working illegally you had no redress, but the employer still owed your Social Security payments to the State plus any fines for non-payment. As long as their lawyer wasn't totally stupid he would soon realize it was cheaper to pay off the worker than pay off the state.

[Guy Courchesne]

Sounds like the US dealing with Mexican illegal workers. Just multiply it by 12 million or so.

[soapdodger]

Well, there we go. Ten days and 5 posts not from me, and only one of them really any concrete story. Must mean I was completely wrong about EFL schools and they're fine upstanding institutions that all play by the rules....... or it could mean that EFL teachers have no concern at all about their rights and don't care what is done to them. Hmmmm.

[william wallace]

nil

[KingEric]

Good luck to all NOVA teachers. That's a lot of lawsuits about to be filed!

[jwbhomer]

Or maybe there are just a lot of people who don't take the American approach of litigating at the drop of a hat.
Especially in Japan, the number of lawyers per 1000 of population, is about 1% of what it is in the USA. And I'd say Japan is the better for it!

[gaijinalways]

This is changing in Japan, where people are sueing now for injuries and wrongful death (the victim's family, that is). Sometimes sueing isn't worth the effort (time and money), and in japan it can get you labeled as a troublemaker and blackballed from some places of employment.

[Joeys ESL Room]

I have a 'concrete story' for you:

Years ago I was in Korea on one contract with a school called REI (Real English Institute). My director, a Mr Jung (owns a school in Kangnam named something like "Jung's English School"), decided that paying his teachers was the least of his concerns when the school started having financial problems. He had taken over the school from my original boss who hired me and told me and the other employees that the contract we had originally signed would be the one that we would use with him as our employer- big mistake. Long story short, the school lost students and therefore money which led to the staff getting paid late and then not at all.

It was in my final month that I asked him to make arrangements to pay me back for my plane ticket, my severance, the 600 000 Won deposit that I gave the school, as well as my pay for two months. The excuses started coming and didn't stop. I did everything in my power to get what I was owed, but later had no choice but to take him to court, which was another waste of time and money. Jung's case was pretty much built on the fact that I had not signed a contract with him. When I called my recruiter, a Jimmy Seo of "Okay Korea" (www.okaykorea.com), he told me that he would help me out, but then never answered another one of my calls or emails, even hanging up on me once when I called from a different number that he didn't recognize - super nice guy. I was therefore on my own and the judge and Jung both seemed to have a good laugh about all of this before I gave up altogether, realizing that I wasn't going to get a dime back.

In the end, I was cheated out of something close to $6000, in addition to a years' worth of anger and resentment for being cheated by not only my director, but by my recruiter as well.

The moral of the story is to make sure that you know who you can trust before you take a job overseas, wherever you go. Jimmy Seo is not one of these people. I have heard glowing reviews about two recruiters who are based out of Canada: "Travel and Teach" (www.travelandteach.info) as well as "Gone 2 Korea" (www.gone2korea.com), if you are weary of recruiters. Both agencies are run by people who were once teachers in Korea, so you won't find yourself 'duped' into taking a job where your basic rights as an employee won't be honored.

I feel inclined to say that situations such as mine are not exactly commonplace in Korea, but you do have to be careful. As long as you find someone that you can put your trust into, you should be fine.

[tedkarma]

Actually, a good reason for "escaping" the West is the lottery mentality about suing someone and making a fortune.

When I was living in Africa someone tried that when they fell in a hole in the "sidewalk" and the judge asked them why they stepped in it? Case closed.

The idea that people have no responsibility in checking out where they are going or what they are doing and that they can make a fortune by suing someone is why the East is expanding at 11% per year while the West is heading into recession with an imploding US$ (I know, I am semi-retired on US$!).

I don't doubt that some people have been wronged - but usually the best method is to vote with your feet - move along to somewhere decent. Legal systems in most countries - the West included - are built for the enrichment of lawyers.

We see enough people who spend their life embittered rather than just moving on and getting on with life.