Job Discussion Forums

[Hannibal Jim]

Hi, all. I am new to the group. I�d like to give you a little background about myself before I ask my first question. I always like to give way too much background, so if you want to get right to the meat of my query, scroll down.

I first visited Dave�s ESL Caf� around 1995 when I was trying to learn a little about second language acquisition (SLA) as a student of Japanese and as a tutor of Japanese students at a community college in Southern California. I then studied a year at Waseda U. in Tokyo and worked part-time at a typical eikaiwa. I got by undergrad and grad degrees in a combination of literature and rhetorical writing � very heavy on theory. I taught an intro to academic writing class for two semesters of grad school, and read and offered revision strategies for thousands of essays throughout my academic career. Left academia for a while, many other stories follow, but now I am going back to Tokyo and want to do some eikaiwa work again.

I do not have ESL-specific training, but I have lots of training in pedagogy, epistemology, cognitive psychology, blah, blah, blah. I may take some ESL classes because I enjoy the field, but before that happens I will be teaching again.

My eikaiwa teaching experience was both enjoyable and frustrating. I am curious about people, I know a lot about Japanese culture (my wife is Japanese, I have lots of friends here and there, and we go back and forth quite often), and so I enjoyed the conversation part of it. But when I tried to teach, I used textbooks, worked up lesson plans around specific aspects of grammar, and in spite of my lack of ESL training, I think I had a pretty solid plan for making it fun and effective. Problem was, most of the students came in after work, were really burned out, and were generally convinced that an hour of halted English per week was all they needed to somehow keep in the English groove. I�m sure you all understand.

I�m a nice guy � fun, interesting, down to earth, upbeat, and very aware of Japanese culture, so I got lots of good reviews and my employers were happy. I was frustrated because I knew that the students would never advance with such a casual attitude. I�d like to try something new.

I have been into SLA theory and classroom techniques, and Stephen Krashen�s input hypothesis has really caught my attention. After studying Japanese for a few years in a formal, Japanese style, when I tried to speak with average Japanese people, I was stymied. I soon realized that it was just like English. I could teach students how to write or speak formal English, but if they used those rules to talk with a New York cab driver or a Texas farmer . . .. So I made a major decision about how I was going to become conversant in Japanese. I decided that I needed to become as much like a child as I could and listen with all the focus of a child trying to make sense of the world around him. I thought about all the people I knew that came to the U.S. and never studied formal ESL and some actually became quite conversant in a natural manner. I let go of the grammar formulas, started really listening and trying to speak as much as I could, and within six months I was quite comfortable speaking Japanese.

Krashen�s is the first formal SLA theory that that seems to validate my own discovery, and I�d like to figure out a way to apply this in the classroom. I�ve read all the discussions about Krashen on this site and others. I read one person�s take on the theory that I like, and it goes like this: instead of aiming to receive input that is exactly at our i+1 level, or instead of having a teacher aim to teach us grammatical structure that is at our i+1 level, we should instead just focus on communication that is understandable. If we do this, and if we get enough of that kind of input, then we will in effect be receiving and thus acquiring our i+1.


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My problem is the �get enough input part.� An hour a week ain�t gonna cut it. I was thinking about maybe reading some English translations of old Japanese folktales and burn them onto CDs. These are stories that most Japanese are familiar with in L1, so the big picture of the story is already there. Any discovery of the story would be, �Oh, that�s how one says that in English.� This would allow them to perhaps focus on the grammar and cadence of English and not worry about trying to figure out what they�re saying. I would encourage students to listen to the stories on the way to work or wherever they might have down time. Maybe if they have kids, they could listen together. I don�t know.

This is just some nonsense from a guy outside of your expertise. I know that some of my rhetoric colleagues would not even acknowledge an ESL teacher trying to talk about our field, but I believe that some of the most creative ideas come from trying to imagine an area of knowledge that you have no formal training in. I think that all that training and theory feeds you into a rut and puts blinders on you.

So, if some of you have some similar experience that you think might be useful, or some stuff to read, please let me know. If you think I am way off, please keep it to yourself. Ignorance is bliss. I�m joking! Of course I want to know. Just please try to support it with some actual hard evidence. After all, I am a rhetorical genius! So much for adopting Japanese humility, huh?

Thanks a lot,

Jim

[Stephen Jones]

As an SLA theorist Krashen is a total joke.

What he recommends in practice though is normally on the ball, though not for the reasons he suggests. If you are thinking that people can learn a second language like children acquired a first language forget it though;won't work and your students don't have the necessary 10,000-15,000 hours it would take anyway.

[gaijinalways]

Your idea is not that far off the mark, attempting to access stories they already know in the attempt to give them some topical knowledge they can use to access new linguistic knowledge. Will depend on the students' knowledge of folk tales and their linguistic knowledge as some folktale vocabulary is not at the beginner/low level.

[sheeba]

Krashen to me is outdated. Naturally that will happen. I think even he might admit he's been talking shite.

To me the explicit teaching of rules does aid acquisition and there is not the distinction that Krashen makes.

Krashen talks about learning language and the 'affective filter' whilst waffling on about 1+1 comprehension for a student that is listening to ungraded speeches.

He totally contradicts himself. I think he does actually make good points but he is not able to articulate himself to the public as a professional. Therefore everyone these days jumps on the 'attack Krashen bandwagon'. Not surprising really.

[Glenski]

Input is important, but so is interaction. You can read all the books on a language that you want, but unless you actually speak to someone to try practicing that language, you will only have book knowledge.

I am more curious about one of the points you raised, namely about the CDs you propose making.
1) You are the one with a fondness for Japanese folklore. These are Japanese people you propose to give them to. They may not have the same enthusiasm.

2) We are talking eikaiwa here. Yes, some people who attend the weekly classes are burned out at the end of the day and may still think that once a week will do something for them. But there are also many others that attend for totally different reasons other than to learn the language. Some may come to socialize with other students (or teacher). Some may just want to gawk at a teacher (or more!). Some just want to get out of the house and find taking a language course a hobby, not something they want to pursue any further than the classroom walls.

So, just how are you going to "encourage" these people to listen to CDs in their spare time? I'm not trying to be negative about this, although I am dubious that you will meet with much success. I am very serious about how you propose to create a stimulating enough environment in the classroom that the above students will be enthused enough to listen to the CDs and try to compare the grammar they think they know with what is on the recordings (and with what they learned in Japanese).

[naturegirl321]

My uni where I'm getting my MA from loves Krashen.

I think that motivation is the biggest key. Students have to want to learn and they will FIND ways to learn. I had one student, intermediate level, who learnt heaps of English through chat rooms, that was his thing. Others learn through song, or through conversation partners, language exchanges, girlfriends, boyfriends. My motivation was my husband. Either I learned Spanish or we didn't talk.

Tell your students where they can find ENglish, Maybe start an English corner, or club. Or Try to get langauge exchanges going. If you know foriengers who want to learn Japanese, they can pair up once a week with your students.

[spiral78]

Sheeba, you might want to google Stephen Krashen. He's widely (and popularly) published in a range of fields and is considered highly professional by many - clearly able to convince a wide range of educated people of his professionalism!.

Hannibal, you might be interested in later theories that focus on input PLUS output - Merrill Swain did some important work in this realm in Canadian immersion programs, discovering that input, however perfect, without output (meaning use) was insufficient to support language acquisition. David Nunan, Jane Willis, and others have since written pretty extensively on this point, often linking it to their work on Task-Based Learning.

Another point that is emphasized by the authors above is that both input and output need to be meaningful and relevant to the learner. I think fairy tales are unlikely to be either to adult students. Consider what language they NEED and can actually use in real-life situations. This is likely what you, in fact, did in your learning of Japanese.

I think a bit of reading might help you to inform your personal theories to the point that they could be quite useful to learners.

[Hannibal Jim]

I am getting some really wonderful feedback here. Thanks to all of you. There is another forum I looked at that is more geographically/culturally specific to eikaiwa teaching, but the threads seem to quickly become rather childish bickering. This group seems very professional and sincere, and I appreciate that very much. Furthermore, the discussion of how to stimulate an excitement for learning outside the classroom should have universal appeal, so a general forum is perhaps better than a narrow one.

It was interesting to hear Stephen Jones tear apart Krashen, but also say that �What he recommends in practice though is normally on the ball, though not for the reasons he suggests.� How can I find out more about what he recommends in practice?

Sheeba seems to have an equal amount of reverence for Krashen, but offers the wisdom that �the explicit teaching of rules does aid acquisition.�

Both gaijinalways and Glenski offered some insight unique to the Japanese ESL teaching experience, and offered some valuable tips that will help me tweak my approach this time.

Naturegirl321 has obviously spent time with the idea of stimulating an interest in learning, and offers some goods tips for keeping it up outside the classroom.

Thanks again, folks.

In my educational experience, both as a student and a teacher, the key factor in mastering ANY subject is enthusiasm. In many of the classes I took, I became aware that the teacher was directing a lot of attention at me during a lecture. Why? Because when I looked around at the other students, I seemed to be the only one engaged in what he or she was saying. If somebody is telling me something that I have signed up to learn about, then I am intellectually invested. I nod my head, make puzzled faces if I�m lost, open my eyes wide if I�m surprised. I�m actively engaged.

It wasn�t always that way. When I was a kid, if I didn�t like a subject, I was as defiant and uninterested as most of today�s media-saturated generation. I eventually dropped out of high school, but that monkey on my back of nagged me all the time. I tried and failed several times to go to community college, but when I finally went for it, I convinced myself that enthusiasm was the only way.

I know that many, I would even say most, of the Japanese eikaiwa students share that nagging feeling about not having conversational competence in English. Some students attended the school where I taught for decades. Why would they not give up? I assume it�s that same feeling of �I have just got to get this.�

While teaching writing at the university, I am ashamed to say that most of my colleagues did not seem to have a deep enthusiasm for being academically challenged. Taking classes seemed to be more of a game that one could win if one simply acquired the techniques of winning. It was winning for the sake of a passing grade, or to be better than the next guy, not to make an impact on the way one sees the world. I saw learning how to read, analyze and create a convincing argument as a way to defy the advertisers, politicians, and religious fanatics everywhere by breaking down their arguments into the absolutely flawed logic that it is. This is what makes an educated person different from the pliable masses, and it has changed my life for the better

OK. Starting to wander here. Sorry.

I know it can be depressing for teachers. Glenski makes some very valid points and I have seen all those students he mentions with reasons other than learning to go to an English class. I think I have enough experience to identify those students who want to learn and those who don�t, but I�d like to hear some of your methods for figuring them out. I am not na�ve enough to think that we are going to transform all our students into shining, happy learners, but for our own sanity, we need to find ways to stimulate those who deep down inside really want to master the subject. We all know that an hour a week is not enough, so I am looking for ways to provide the enthusiastic ones with some immersion tools outside of class. I can see the value of drills and reading, but I think most people find them boring. I want to hear about methods that you�ve tried or heard of that I can explore.

I love about a good dialog with colleagues. You guys are great. Interacting with you really helps me clarify what I am thinking and trying to say, and I love how my own thinking evolves in the process.

[Glenski]

[naturegirl321]

[gaijinalways]

[Stephen Jones]

A Krashenite would say explicit rules work because they help to make the input comprehensible. That is to say the students learn from the comprehensible input, not from the grammar rule directly.

[sheeba]

[spiral78]

Sheeba, I agree with you about the limitations of Krashen's theories of language acquisition. I'm just saying that he is, in fact, considered reputable in a range of professional fields.

I'm also a fan of linking explicit knowledge of the functions of language to its use.

I'd agree that Hannibal could usefully add Rod Ellis' book to his reading list. It's a useful one, IMO.

[sheeba]

Yeah, sorry spiral I know he's a big name. I think my inability to articulate myself made me seem to suggest otherwise. But I'm not getting megabucks like Mr Krashen!