Job Discussion Forums

[ruggedtoast]

So, I go to my Japanese class most mornings and I take the good lessons that the Japanese teachers give. I learn my "sumimasens" and my "doko desu ka's" and my "arigato gazaimasu's" - and sometimes my teachers say "hai" and occasionally they say "mo ichido onegai shimasu" but SOMETIMES they say " Ii desu NE!" - which makes me happy.

So I proudly make my way out into the world filled and enthused with confidence with my new linguistic powers and I distribute my "sumimasens" and my "doko desu ka's" and my "arigato gazaimasu's" to the world at large, AND invariably two things happen.

1. The person to which I am attempting to talk, or whom is attempting to talk to me has absolutely no idea what I am saying, not the gist not the content, not even any random vocabulary.

2. Said person decides that I am a psychiatric patient that has escaped from the local mental hospital - I may or may not be potentially dangerous - but I am obviously mentally deficient, a problem, they decide, which can only be remedied by saying "Eh? Eh?" loudly; and then repeating the thing I didnt understand them say before but this time twice as fast.

Now I know Im at a pretty early stage with my nihongo studies and I also know that Im not the worlds greatest linguist but in my time I have been semi-passable at German and almost-adequate at French and neither of the peoples of both those great nations seemed to find my attempts to approximate their languages as astonishingly incomprehensible as do the Japanese. If they had done I dont think I would have had the confidence to pursue my studies very far.

Any advice?

[kovac]

I had studied Japanese 2 long years, 3 times a week attending classes before coming to Japan...now Im here Im almost having to re-learn the language....Japanese teachers often teach us gaijin Japanese that is so polite that your everyday Japanese person doesnt know what we are saying or they will say "Omae no nihongo wa memeshii yo" (Your Japanese is very feminine)

I had struggled with this, with my Japanese teacher back home, every lesson she would go through the class asking what we had done that week...any derivations from "ultra polite proper" japanese were met with "OI DAME DA YO" and a slap across the head ! (it was ok for her to revert to "normal everyday" japanese but not us !)

My recommendations are to try and study all the "forms" (ie plain form, polite form, ru form, te form, etc,etc) of words...I know its difficult learning one word then having to remember about 5 variations on it...but its better than going about adding "masu" to everything.

Some books I would recommend are "Mangajins Basic Japanese through Comics"...as it presents everyday Japanese in contextual everyday situations (you shouldnt use as a core study book, merely as an aid)

"Japanese for Busy People" does stick to "polite" Japanese but at least does delve into all the forms.

and if you want to be ultra slangy Peter constantines "Japanese street slang" can teach you the things your teacher will never tell you.

Some good software for study can be found at
http://www.declan-software.com/japanese/
only about 40 dollars and VERY worth the money

For just everyday Japanese chit chat and little hints...
http://www.georgeandkeiko.com/
is very entertaining and some good general day to day japanese

Alternatively. Try and get a "private" teacher...I started this month, its a little expensive, but since you pay the money you can request any style or form of Japanese...though it is best to study "Neutral" japanese at first

There is the option of a Japanese GF or BF, but often as such you will find yourself just speaking english all the time.

Me ? Well when I arrived here I asked fellow gaijin what was the most "gaijin unfriendly" bar around....then I went there....It was tough..as nobody spoke english at all, and there were a few communication difficulties, but now Im pals with lots of the regulars and its is like my own little evening eikawa...Without sounding patronising, I think its great that visitors here make an attempt to learn the language...its why I came here..I wanna become fluent (see my catch 22 post in finding it difficult to actuall get Japanese speaking time) Ive been really embaressed to meet people that have lived here like 6 years with wives, kids, etc but they still cant read or write, etc

Gambatte

Hope this is of some use

[kovac]

oh and another thing....at least try to "monomane".... to mimic

The few people Ive met that do study Japanese, seem to think speaking the language in their own accent is ok....a classic example is a guy from Newcastle I met with a broad geordie accent, speaking Japanese even I cant understand....If your a man....try not moving your mouth as much when you pronounce as Male Japanese is very "throaty"

Best tips for this is movies...watch em, hear a phrase you undertsand and try to mimic as best you can....you might go around sounding like a Samurai or Yakuza...but I think Japanese people appreciate it, and it always gets a laugh

[lajzar]

Also bear in mind that Japanese people aren't necessarily mentally prepared for a non-Japanese to peak their language. I was six months into my current job before I could speak to my co-workers in Japanese without them commenting on the fact that I can speak Japanese.

[Dr.J]

I second the accent thing; try to sound like a samurai. If female, the standard is a cute 6 year old girl (no matter your actual age) but feel free to break the mould.

Otherwise, try not to focus on what you don't know. Cause that's a shi*load.

[BenJ]

I feel your pain ruggedtoast - I:ve been here 3months and only found some Japanese willing to speak to me at my work. The rest of the time any Japanese person I speak to speaks super-dooper-mega fast to me, and after repeating themselves for the 5th time they still speak as fast, or they become very nervous and shy at the thought of having to use an English word or two.

Making friends of older students seems the way to go.

[Brooks]

I am glad to see that some people are trying to learn Japanese. It can be hard, as we know.
I am sick of teachers who never bother to learn.

I used to think that having a Japanese girlfriend would help but it doesn`t always. It helps that she has taught Japanese as well as English. She helps me with grammar and with kanji.

I think it is good to have two Japanese teachers: one who is a woman and one who is a man. I have used woman`s Japanese, and have been told this. It isn`t surprising, since the Japanese I hear the most comes from my girlfriend. That is when mimicking is not always a good idea.

I also think that Japanese pronunciation needs to be taught. My teachers have tended not to teach it. What is especially hard are katakana words.
I will give an example. Sometimes when I was in a restaurant I would order too quickly with an American accent. I need to try to have a flatter intonation. Actually in Kanto, unlike in Kansai, intonation is not flat. I have never seen a book that mentioned this, but my teacher taught me.

So I might say, "orange juice hitotsu kudasai." But the waitress didn`t understand, and I don`t want my girlfriend to be the interpreter. I want to say it myself so I say, and slower: orenji jusu.

Yeah I know how it is the first year when you try to speak and people don`t understand. You just have to keep learning and going to class.
I do think that alcohol helps. When I was in Russia, I spoke Russian best when I was drinking vodka or beer.

Like anywhere, people speak their native language quickly. I still want to shoot the breeze in nihongo, but I have only limited success so far.

[Wolf]

I went to a part time juku class three times a week . . . for most of my time in Japan. I bought a stack of textbooks - including a textbook on Japanese slang/reduced phrases. All my teachers were women but they were careful that I (and the other guys if there were any in the class) wouldn't pick up on "women's Japanese." The books also outlined the difference.

For pronunciation practice, I'd rent videos and later DVDs. DVDs are great because you can flip on the Japanese subtitles while listening to the Japanese soundtrack. I'd mimic what the actors/characters said. Also, a lot of TV shows (especially animation) have characters who use female words a lot, characters who use male words a lot, polite characters, humble characters, rude characters . . . so I picked up quite a few ways to say the same thing.

And I bought a series of Kanji books ("Basic Kanji" and "Intermediate Kanji") I went through them like a 5 year old kid, memorizing readings, practicing writing them, and learning compound words that use the characters. After 3 years I knew most of the 1006 "elementary school" kanji.

All my co-workers with good Japanese were in long term relationships with Japanese women (mostly guys at our school.) A few of the people who didn't speak Japanese well were married to Japanese women. It may or may not be a hinderence to your learning. I also suggest (dont' read any further if you have a pacemaker, guys ) that anyone who wants to learn Japanese make friends of BOTH genders.

My juku used the "Minna no Nihongo" series of books (these get used in China as well, BTW), which is the new version of "Nihongo no Kisou." It's a bit on the structuralist side (new grammar points, writing drill practice, vocab lists, but aslo listenting pracitce, reading practice, and model conversations.) Our teacher did give us ample "communicative" practice in class.

Heck, let's just say that if you want to learn, I recommend the whole nine yards: REAL classes, kanji books, Minna no Nihongo (or other) books, Japanese friends (esp of your own gender, so you can learn how you should sound), videos/DVDs, practice reading the ads on the trians if you use them lots, etc etc.
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[kovac]

I agree with the speaking better japanese/other language when drunk...you get away with more mistakes a) because your drunk and b) everybody else is too

plus its a more relaxed setting...in my work I cant speak japanese to one receptionist cos she constantly corrects me on even the slightest flaw,making me nervous and stumble over words but on another day I can blabber for hours to another.

Anyone noticed how some Japanese REALLY pick up on your mistakes !?

"NO NO THATS WRONG !"

[guest of Japan]

YES!

[kovac]

ahhh someone else gets picked up on for "tiny" mistakes

classic example I said "kokoyubin de okutte kudasai"...for air mail...I checked with my strict receptionist before I popped to the post office...hmmm no its "Kokoyuuuuuubin" she stressed.....you should just say "air mail de okutte kudasai" she scolded.

Another time, I complained to a Japanese buddy we never spoke enough Japanese....then for the next 30 mins I was subjected to FULL force, FULL speed japanese in true "miseberakasa" (showing off) syle...

I dunno...I dont ask Japanese people to say "lovely lucy likes liking lollipops" then snicker and correct their "R for L" substitutions...Still makes me study harder n harder

[ellienihon]

Another one that I don't give my Japanese friends is "She sells seashells by the sea shore"

OTOH, while I can do the "Nama mugi namagome nama tamago" tongue twister, I can't even remember the "Tookyoo tokkyo kyoka kyoku (?)" one. I'm so looking forward to being back in Japan

[guest of Japan]

Tokyou Tokyo to kya kyo ku.

[PAULH]

[ruggedtoast]

thanks for your good advice guys!