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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: What happens when you get fired or quit? |
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Hi, first, I'd like to apologize if this topic has been beat to death already. I did try to search for it... but I didnt have much luck.
What happens if you either quit or get fired from the job that helped you to get your ARC? I know that in order to get an ARC, a school here has to apply for you, in addition to having your own consent. In my case, the school is not paying for the ARC, though... I am.
My situation is this: that I really like Taiwan and want to stay.... But there are many very undesirable things about my job I didnt discover until after I started work; some of those things are not in the contract and I was advised they were part of a "verbal agreement" I allegedly made with the school (about which I have absolutely no recollection). Some of the things are neither in nor not in the contract; they're just things about general bad working conditions and environment. After a long "discussion" with the school, I dont think they are willing to change and I know I'm not...
Anyway, so I'm weighing my options. I could either stay there, go to another country where the working situation doesn't suck as bad as Taiwan, or quit that job and try to find a better one. What happens with #3? |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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If you quit, your ARC & Work Permit will be canceled. There are essentially two scenarios how this plays out.
1) You basically start over from scratch. You have to leave the country, probably to Hong Kong, and apply for a visitor visa, and then start your job search over again.
2) You get black-listed by your school, and the gov't will no longer issue a work permit to you. Therefore you have no real choice but to leave.
More than likely the first scenario plays out, because it has been said that #2 is nothing more than urban legend, but I believe it to be true. I dunno...I like conspiracy theories. |
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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| BigWally wrote: |
If you quit, your ARC & Work Permit will be canceled. There are essentially two scenarios how this plays out.
1) You basically start over from scratch. You have to leave the country, probably to Hong Kong, and apply for a visitor visa, and then start your job search over again.
2) You get black-listed by your school, and the gov't will no longer issue a work permit to you. Therefore you have no real choice but to leave.
More than likely the first scenario plays out, because it has been said that #2 is nothing more than urban legend, but I believe it to be true. I dunno...I like conspiracy theories. |
What happens if they fire you? Say, for example, they ask you to work Saturday but you refuse because there is no requirement to work Saturdays. They decide they dont like you, and they fabricate another reason to fire you. Still lose the work permit and ARC? |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| If you are no longer employed, you no longer have a work permit or ARC. |
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BJ
Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Yes you will loose them, because they fired you. |
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MomCat
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Pest 2,
Your school doesn't have to fabricate a reason to fire you. I'm sure you'll find a clause in your contract that says either party can give 30 days notice, no reason needed. They don't want to fire you, they want you to stay and work. It sounds like they're short of teachers and are wanting to squeeze more hours out of you. That's common, you'll probably find it at other schools too.
There are ways to refuse to work and there are ways to refuse to work. The "He11 no, it's my day off!" approach just doesn't work too well (here). If you tell them "No, I'm sorry." Smile, look sorry and excuse yourself politely. It will work better (usually). Never tell them why you can't work. Never give a reason. It will just give them fuel to argue with you.
If you want to quit. Quit. In writing, and keep a copy. Give them a vague reason ("for personal reasons, I am giving XYZ school ..."). And give them the required 30 days notice. Or if you have classes that end in 45 days, quit in 45 days. If you can, have your new job lined up. It's possible to start the paperwork for your new job and just transfer over your ARC. If you're able to pull it off, it will be a lot cheaper.
Be careful with your timing, trying to get a flight off this island during CNY will be tough and expensive.
Good luck,
Cat |
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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| MomCat wrote: |
Pest 2,
Your school doesn't have to fabricate a reason to fire you. I'm sure you'll find a clause in your contract that says either party can give 30 days notice, no reason needed. They don't want to fire you, they want you to stay and work. It sounds like they're short of teachers and are wanting to squeeze more hours out of you. That's common, you'll probably find it at other schools too.
There are ways to refuse to work and there are ways to refuse to work. The "He11 no, it's my day off!" approach just doesn't work too well (here). If you tell them "No, I'm sorry." Smile, look sorry and excuse yourself politely. It will work better (usually). Never tell them why you can't work. Never give a reason. It will just give them fuel to argue with you.
If you want to quit. Quit. In writing, and keep a copy. Give them a vague reason ("for personal reasons, I am giving XYZ school ..."). And give them the required 30 days notice. Or if you have classes that end in 45 days, quit in 45 days. If you can, have your new job lined up. It's possible to start the paperwork for your new job and just transfer over your ARC. If you're able to pull it off, it will be a lot cheaper.
Be careful with your timing, trying to get a flight off this island during CNY will be tough and expensive.
Good luck,
Cat |
Wow, that's bleak. Thanks everyone for your advice... I tell ya what, if I have to leave TW for any reason related to a crappy job, the labor law here, as such as you all have described it, is sufficient reason for me never to come back to work (unless Im working for a big multinational company not run by Taiwanese)... I like Taiwan, but it ain't worth it... |
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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| I forgot to mention something else: My wife is here and working at a different school. She will get her ARC shortly. Is it possible to stay here with her as her dependent rather than leaving TW and getting a new ARC? We have a legal proof of our marriage with us.... |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Not likely, unless she is a Taiwanese citizen, and then you need to be married for 7 years or something like that. My understanding is married or not, if you're out of a job, you need to go the visitors visa route individually. |
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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| BigWally wrote: |
| Not likely, unless she is a Taiwanese citizen, and then you need to be married for 7 years or something like that. My understanding is married or not, if you're out of a job, you need to go the visitors visa route individually. |
OK, thanks so much for the info. |
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BJ
Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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What are they asking you to do? work Saturday? - Saturday is a busy teaching day for most schools. Ask yourself are they paying me for the extra hours. Have they asked you to work because they need someone in the short time?
Will it kill you to stay for a month help them out whilst looking for a new job and still being paid?
Sorry to say it, but this is Asia, labour laws here are not like the States so either suck it up or leave. In my years here I have worked for many employers but I can only think of one occasion where the school was out of order, and they paid me double wages because they needed me to work.
Be nice, smile ask yourself, are they paying me, and is it really to troublesome. |
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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: |
What are they asking you to do? work Saturday? - Saturday is a busy teaching day for most schools. Ask yourself are they paying me for the extra hours. Have they asked you to work because they need someone in the short time?
Will it kill you to stay for a month help them out whilst looking for a new job and still being paid?
Sorry to say it, but this is Asia, labour laws here are not like the States so either suck it up or leave. In my years here I have worked for many employers but I can only think of one occasion where the school was out of order, and they paid me double wages because they needed me to work.
Be nice, smile ask yourself, are they paying me, and is it really to troublesome. |
Actually, Saturday work isnt the specific issue, but its something like that. Its not so much about the added burden as it is about the fact that they are not honoring what they promised, when I was hired -- both in the contract and verbally.
Yes, I know the laws here are not like those in the states. You would be over-generalizing to say that laws in all asian countries themselves are the same though... or that the work situations are the same... markets the same... etc etc. In a nutshell, from my perspective, Taiwan is on the bottom end of different in all those categories. (I've worked in 2 others and heavily researched another 2 for a total of 4 now to compare to).
Whereas some people have a reason to remain in TW for work, I simply dont... it would be much more prudent and move to a better market. Simple economics: Go where demand is greater.
Ahhh and I didnt want this to devolve into a Taiwan bashing thread, either. I must say, Taiwan is like a breath of fresh air after living in Korea.... the people are very easy to make friends with, there are plenty of interesting things to see and do... Really, I am sure the main reasons the market sucks here are 1) people just dont care about learning English as much because English language isnt as heavily integrated into their society;not a bad thing at all for them but bad for me 2) the labor laws in Taiwan seem somewhat unfair, in general, compared to other asian countres.. and then even moreso with respect to work visa holders. |
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BJ
Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Employer attitude in Asia is actually remarkably similar, Whilst the strength of labour laws differ from country to country dependent of many factors ranging from market maturity/economic sub structure, strength of Unions, cultural norms, employment rates, benifits, law inforcement, Morale ethos, past practice, lawmaking, government etc etc one thing is generally accepted that management is right and workers are there to do what the boss says. The weaker the laws et al the more flexible the contract is. AT the end of the day employers are different from comapny to company some better some worse. If you dont like what they say you have the power to leave. My concern was your economic welfare after soending money to come here. But uproot and move on seems an easy option for you and might be your best course of action.
Of course its a generalisation, gah the cry Oh its a generalisation, an over generalisation, be more specific always seems to creep in.
If you dont go into details but ask for opinion we have to work on generalisations.
Well I hope it soughts itself out, and perhaps Japan or Singapore might be better for you as they have much stricter labour laws (a generalisation of course as I dont know all the employers there). |
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pest2
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: |
Employer attitude in Asia is actually remarkably similar, Whilst the strength of labour laws differ from country to country dependent of many factors ranging from market maturity/economic sub structure, strength of Unions, cultural norms, employment rates, benifits, law inforcement, Morale ethos, past practice, lawmaking, government etc etc one thing is generally accepted that management is right and workers are there to do what the boss says. The weaker the laws et al the more flexible the contract is. AT the end of the day employers are different from comapny to company some better some worse. If you dont like what they say you have the power to leave. My concern was your economic welfare after soending money to come here. But uproot and move on seems an easy option for you and might be your best course of action.
Of course its a generalisation, gah the cry Oh its a generalisation, an over generalisation, be more specific always seems to creep in.
If you dont go into details but ask for opinion we have to work on generalisations.
Well I hope it soughts itself out, and perhaps Japan or Singapore might be better for you as they have much stricter labour laws (a generalisation of course as I dont know all the employers there). |
You're right about "the slave situation" in asia... by that, I mean people are not seen as having inalieable rights so they can be treated as things rather than people. But, you said it, "the weaker the laws are, the more flexible the contract is..." In China and Korea, an employer cannot just fire you without a good reason, and they have to give a certain amount of notice for it and even provide a documented warning. I dont know exactly the situation in Japan, but I do know they tend to play by the rules of the contract.. and they cant just fire you on a whim (you have to admit Japan is probably a unique case in some ways.)
Gah, the economic welfare is the biggy! If you get stuck with a dishonest company in Taiwan, you could actually be losing money as compared to when you got there... paying for trips to Hong Kong, relocations, etc...
Then, the 350$ for a visa and ARC! China was like 70$ but the company almost always pays.... Korea, 100$ but the company pays 99% of the time. Every place I've heard of in TW, the employee pays... the employee pays to have a document that binds that employee to the company in a way that gives the company almost absolute power over that person. What a great deal!
Then, the tax. 20% for the first 6 months! China had some tax, but it wasnt more than 10% at most... Korea, 4 or 5%
Then, the generally lower pay relative to cost of living. Here, ppl work 40-50 hours (teaching maybe 30 hours) per week to make 2000$ US. The cost of living is the same as in Korea, where people work 30-40 hours (teaching 20-25 hours per week) to earn between 2500 and 3k$US ( I am factoring in the cost of company-provided rent in Korea)... China, a big city like Shanghai or Beijing, people make 1600$US per month but the rent is only about 1/2 of what it is in TW. All other living costs are about 1/2... And on average you work only slightly more than in Korea and a helluva lot less than in TW.
Now, dont get me wrong, even though I saved alot of money in Korea over a period of time -- enough to give me some financial freedom now -- I never want to go back to that place... its NOT a nice place... but you do get paid for it..
I would probably go to Vietnam or Thailand... Vietnam especially has an up and coming market and from some interviews I've already had with companies there, the conditions seem about like those in China.. |
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rupert shellgame
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I just want to be sure, what is the verdict here?
Is it possible to change jobs without leaving the country and starting over with the ARC process? I was told by an experienced player here that unless your job is absolutely pissed at you, they will play ball and allow you to transfer sponsorship of the ARC. After all, they don't want you saying nasty things about them in forums like this, since that would make it real hard for them to dupe the next foreigner into falling into the same trap. |
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