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Axel Heidsman
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Area 47
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 Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Education Allowances |
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| In several threads, people have commented on how teaching EFL in KSA state universities seems to attract mainly singles with little experience and married people whose professional experience dates back to the 60s and 70s. Could this be partly due to the pittance that the Ministry of Higher Education authorizes for disbursement as education allowances for lecturers' children? The current allowance of SR25,000 p.a. per family is roughly enough to cover half the fees for one child at a reasonably good secondary school. As state-run universities in the KSA cannot be short of a riyal or two, it seems reasonable to conclude that a policy that discourages employment applications from lecturers with school-age families is designed to do exactly that. Can anyone tell me why the ministry wants to discourage applications from married 25-to-45-year-olds with children? Surely it's not just to save money! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| . As state-run universities in the KSA cannot be short of a riyal or two, it seems reasonable to conclude that a policy that discourages employment applications from lecturers with school-age families is designed to do exactly that. |
I find this attitude typical of many expats in KSA. They believe that state instituitons in the Kingdom are so stinking rich that they have nothing better to do with their cash than generously fund the private education of the children of migrant workers.
I know my idea may sound radical to some, but I've always believed that those who choose to have children should be prepared to pay for them. Those who bring their 'dependents' with them to KSA are already a bigger burden on their employer without having them whinge over education allowances. |
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Axel Heidsman
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Area 47
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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[QUOTE: I know my idea may sound radical to some]
Not really - it sounds more as if you've spent rather a long time nursing an asp at your bosom, rather then something less noisome.
I was wondering if the govt of KSA was concerned that the presence of too many kufr sprogs might speed the spread of the global youth culture. |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: kids and money |
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[/quote]I know my idea may sound radical to some, but I've always believed that those who choose to have children should be prepared to pay for them. Those who bring their 'dependents' with them to KSA are already a bigger burden on their employer without having them whinge over education allowances.
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I've had colleagues with even stronger opinions. Some have even suggested that institutions do away with education allowances altogether. They thought that everyone should receive the cash benefit of the education allowance, and the ones with children could spend it on education while the childless ones could put it in the bank.
I don't think that the low education allowances have anything to do with some widespread plot to prevent foreign children from infecting KSA's youth. When you're over here, you realize that most of these institutions are in fact quite strapped for money, and that SR25,000 is considered to be a lot of money for a child's education locally. The prices of the "Western" international schools are far beyond the means of the average Saudi, just as top private schools in the US are beyond the means of the average middle-class family.
BTW, there are some universities that do pay for a dependent child to attend a good international school. The trick is to only have one or two. Those with more than two are generally out-of-pocket on education. |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry! Obviously I don't yet know how to use the quote function.  |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Mia Xanthi wrote: |
| Sorry! Obviously I don't yet know how to use the quote function. |
Appears that neither of you do, so here's a quick lesson.  Just hit the quote button at the top right of the entry you want to quote and be sure not to delete anything between the square brackets [ ] at the front and end of the quote.
As to Axel's snippy little reply to Cleo, there are many reasons why many singles resent the 'married with children.' We are way too often the ones who end up covering (for no extra pay) while pregnant teachers produce them and then take off a couple months or more... or have to take off work to take care of them if they are sick. Then you get to listen to them whinge and complain about how 'hard' it is and they should get to have schedules that work around their little darling's school hours, so singles should do all the very early or very late or both... while they teach a few hours in the middle of the day and go home. And singles should have to handle any after hours and weekend duties because they have 'family obligations.' All for no extra pay for the singles...
Then they expect to also get paid extra to educate them?
Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?
Of course, not all parents do this... it is mainly 'mothers' of 3-5 kids who often seem to expect special treatment... and are highly insulted if they do not... and are often rude when the singles don't happily do large portions of their work for them. So, with Saudi having more men teachers, it is likely not as common a problem as in the rest of the Gulf.
VS |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1222
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting comments from Her Majesty and VS regarding parents expecting their single workmates to fill in for them when parental duties meant abscence from the workplace. I recently witnessed a bitter argument on this very topic here in Spain and am aware that this is an issue in the London business and banking worlds. I certainly feel for the singles and would be infuriated if I had to put in two hours extra because ''little Johnny'' was at home sick or had to go to the dentist and Mum couldn't work.
However.... demography..... pensions.......responsibility to future generations etc.???? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I was wondering if the govt of KSA was concerned that the presence of too many kufr sprogs might speed the spread of the global youth culture. |
Were you? That isn't quite what you said in your OP. Hidden agendas, eh?
But, no, I don't think the Saudi government fears any such thing. Rather, like many people they are doubtless asking why on earth they should pay for every migrant workers' offspring to attend private schools which their parents would never be able to afford in their home countries.
As VS says, far too many parents here seem to think their colleagues and employers should in some way help to shoulder a burden which is not theirs. Certainly by no means all, or even most, parents behave in such a manner. But enough do to make it a distinct annoyance. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
| However.... demography..... pensions.......responsibility to future generations etc.???? |
True, but I didn't usually share a nationality with these sorts, so the little darlings won't be supporting me in my old age. Actually, I am supporting me with the money I saved doing my work.
When I first arrived in the Gulf and encountered this 'new to me' problem (it didn't seem to come up in my business career), I happily helped these mothers out. But by the end of that first contract, I learned that never once did they even bother to thank you for what they considered their 'rights.'
VS |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| School fees in Dhahran can be as much as SR40,000 a year per child. You might think it would be nice for the government to pick up the tab for this. Dream on ! Those days are gone ! |
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Axel Heidsman
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Area 47
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I seem to have struck a nerve. The childless - or childfree as they would no doubt style themselves - have been imposed upon and inconvenienced by teaching mothers. However, like VS, I imagine that this is less of a problem in the KSA than in other Gulf states. Perhaps some correspondents from other parts of the gulf would blame this on the education allowances of 8 to 10 thousand US$ per child given by some regional universities and colleges.
It would be interesting to learn if those institutions that do provide a generous education allowance have the same difficulties in recruiting suitable faculty as do many in the KSA. Are there any managers or directors out there who could honestly say that their recruitment program would be made no easier if they had better education allowances to offer? |
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lall
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 358
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Children |
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| I know my idea may sound radical to some, but I've always believed that those who choose to have children should be prepared to pay for them. |
I agree. I have three and am willing to pay for quality education. In fact, a large portion of my savings is reserved for their higher education.
To answer the OP's post, I suppose employers are wary of the "little Johnny" syndrome (I'm using 'syndrome' for want of a better word) for it really affects the work environment and frazzles others who have to stand in for the mothers who, (as VS and Cleopatra have pointed out) consider it their right.
I've experienced this first-hand, especially in India, where working mothers casually take the whole afternoon off for an appointment with the doctor who doesn't open his clinic before 5 pm. And this, when there are tender documents to be delivered to the client on the following day. And, no, they won't compensate by working late or arriving early on some other day.
That said, I wonder how would the general response have been if VS and Cleo were male. Would there have been an outcry about male chauvinism? |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Probably...but that is a moot point. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Are there any managers or directors out there who could honestly say that their recruitment program would be made no easier if they had better education allowances to offer? |
Are there any managers out there who could honestly say that their recruitment programme would be made no easier if they could offer higher salaries and more generous benefits to all employees - not just those who chose to reproduce?
Now, I know you seem to think that all Gulf institutions are so filthy rich that they simply don't know what to do with their petro-dollars. Not so. As people with experience of working in the region can tell you, salaries and benefits have declined substantially over the past few years in particular. Education allowances for employees' children is one of these benefits, but so is health insurance, paid holidays, housing, etc. Given the declining dollar, salaries have also become less attractive in real terms.
These are the reasons employers in KSA (and possibly elsewhere in the Gulf) are finding it more difficult to recruit. The bad rap KSA has recently received in the media may also be a factor, but I'm not sure how important it is. In any case, as scot has said, while packages for ESL teachers in the Gulf are still among the best in the world, the fantastically generous contracts of the 70s and 80s are probably gone forever. Given that those teachers who come laden with dependent spouses and children already represent bad value from the point of view of the employer, it wouldn't make any sense for them to shell out even more for kids' education while ignoring those aspects of their offers which are unattractive to all potential employees. |
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Axel Heidsman
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Area 47
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Good points - Cleopatra. I withdraw my aspish remark. |
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