Job Discussion Forums

[brian]

In light of the recent questions regarding Jordans I have posted a copy below of a posting that I made on the information journal here at Daves a while ago. I need to update the situation somewhat as things have changed since my original post was made.

The manager that caused the problems for both myself and the other foreign teachers - Poula Huang - has now transferred to another Jordans school in Sanchung. I mention this as that school is currently advertising for teachers, and I can recommend giving it a miss if she is there. The school that I worked at previously may be worth considering now that she is gone though!

Anyway, here's the post:

Having recently found out that my employer had cancelled my work visa without telling me I have had to go through the anxiety of possibly overstaying my visa. I went online at the time to get advice from message boards such as the one here, yet I found conflicting reports as to what would be the repercussions. Below are my personal experiences that I hope will be helpful to others.

I resigned my position with my previous employer (Jordan�s Language School) as was clearly stated as my right under the contract that I had signed. I felt that my departure was quite amicable and after reaching an agreement with them that they would provide me with the required release letter so that I could change my visa over to my new employer I sought out and found a new job. Over a period of several weeks I visited both the school that I previously worked at and the head office of Jordan�s in an effort to get my release letter, and was repeatedly promised by all involved that it was forthcoming. Aware of the fact that I was being stonewalled, my new employer stepped up to the plate and was given the same assurances followed up with the same lack of response. It was finally confirmed by my new employer that Jordan�s had in fact cancelled my visa more than six weeks previously, the cancellation date coinciding with the date of my resignation. Ashamedly, they had tried to hide this fact until they had no further opportunity to do so. The fact is that whether your previous employer cancels your visa or gives you a release letter all they need to do is send a one page document to the DOE. The only reason for an employer to ignore an employees request and choose to send a cancellation letter as opposed to a release letter is pure malice - as in my situation.

Hitting message boards etc, I was devastated to find that although through no fault of my own, my circumstances would be considered an overstay of my visa and that I would be hit with a large fine, would need to leave the country immediately and may be prevented from returning to Taiwan for a period of time ranging from a few days to a year. Of particular concern was the big, ugly, red �OVERSTAY� stamp that everyone suggested would be stamped in my passport, as I was concerned that this could affect my chances of not only getting a visa to return to Taiwan, but to travel to other countries as well. All of this seemed very unfair as not only had I honored my contract at my previous school, but I had received ongoing reassurances from my previous employer that all was okay. Another suggestion that I found on message boards was that employers are required to give seven days notice to employees should they intend to cancel their work visa.

As I want to stay in Taiwan I thought that I should leave as soon as possible to reduce the term of my overstay, and get everything sorted out for my return. I booked a ticket to Hong Kong for a flight within a week. I then went along to the Foreign Affairs Police Station with all of the documentation that I could find and turned myself in. I walked up to the police man and said, �I hope that you can help me as I think that I may have overstayed my visa.� He was very nice and helpful, and I do believe that my genuine request for assistance helped me somewhat. He checked everything out on the computer and reported back that my visa had indeed been cancelled several weeks ago, but that as my ARC was still valid it would not be considered an overstay. I would need to leave the country ASAP and return on a new visa, but there would be no penalty incurred. I confirmed that I had booked a flight to HK and he stamped my passport with a small blue stamp dated a few days after I was due to fly out. Although I needed to leave by this date or incur the wrath of an overstay, he was gracious enough to give me a couple of extra days in case I ran into any difficulties. He stamped my resident visa with a big blue cancelled stamp, and cut the corner off my ARC rendering it useless. I had no problems with immigration in Taiwan, secured a visitors visa in HK and breezed through immigration again on my return. I need to go through the whole ARC application process again, but this is relatively painless considering the overstay alternative. All in all, not a bad outcome.

As far as the seven days notice of cancellation I can find no verification that this is a legal obligation of employers. If you were still working for a company and they cancelled your visa without notice you may have some case, but if you are no longer working for the company then it seems clear that they have no obligation to inform you. Therefore in my case, whilst Jordan�s clearly had a moral obligation to tell me that they were going to cancel my visa since they had given me the undertaking that they wouldn�t do so, the fact that they did not provide me with such notification does not seem to constitute any form of legal breach.

In short two things. Consider carefully whether you want to work for Jordan�s Language School. Whilst it is true that teachers experiences may vary between the individual schools that operate under the umbrella of this companies name, neither the staff in head office nor those at the school that I worked for (one owner, two locations: one on Nanking (Nanjing) East Rd near Dun Hua Rd, the other on Civil Boulevard near Dun Hua Rd) showed me the courtesy of letting me know that they were going to cancel my visa. In fact despite the many opportunities that I gave them through my direct questioning on the matter, they chose to continue to mislead me by reassuring me that everything was okay. Secondly, if you find yourself in a visa pickle, go to the Foreign Affairs Police and ask for help. No matter how justified you may be to do so, don�t jump up and down or try to place the blame on others. Just walk in and calmly ask for their assistance. I can�t promise that things will turn out for you as well as they did for me, but there doesn�t seem to be much point in trying to avoid the inevitable.

One final thing. I am sure that if you have clearly overstayed your visa then the penalties for such as indicated above WILL be levied against you. The purpose of my post is to let those in the gray area that I found myself know that all may not be lost.

[Pop Fly]

Oh well, oh well, oh well me little droogie....

Isn't this a fine turn of events....you have described the exact process I went through with Kojen, right down to the ARC cliping and the blue stamp...we probably talked to the same nice guy at the FAP. Yet this, oddly enough, was not even close to the top of my list of complaints about Kojen. Kinda makes me go...uhhhh????

I go "uhhhhh????" because here you are suggesting that the entirety of Jordan's be avoided...

[brian]

I certainly learned from my experience, but not what you are suggesting that I learned.

From the outset let me make it clear that I find it reprehensible that any school would fail to provide a release letter purely out of spite. Provided that a teacher has fulfilled the terms of their contract, there is no reason that a school should act badly towards the teacher, whether they happen to like that teacher or not. If the friend that you speak of is in this position through non of his own wrongdoing then he certainly has my sympathies.

What happened in my case? Well I was working at a franchise school, which is something that one should exercise care with if working for a chain. Things run differently in franchises and head office has less control over how things are done. Whilst this can sometimes work to a teachers benefit (higher pay, more holidays, more flexible boss etc.) it can also be a negative. In my case the actions of my school may have gone against what head office procedure was (I certainly hope that head office don�t advocate this type of behavior), and therefore the staff at head office were no doubt put in a bad situation. Had they distanced themselves by explaining that it was a matter between myself and the school that I was working at, I would have had to accept their stance. The fact is that they got involved and reassured me that all was okay when it clearly wasn�t. This is the reasoning behind my suggestion that care be exercised in dealing with Jordan�s, as they seem to be somewhat inept. I included in my post the fact that independently run schools would result in different experiences. I don�t agree that my post in unnecessarily negative towards Jordan�s, and is certainly not on par with the types of comments made by others such as yourself who attempt to trash a whole school because of a bad experience.

The purpose of reposting was two fold. Firstly, to let others know that the school that I previously worked for may now be worth considering as the problem seems to have moved on. The school that the problem has now moved to should be treated with care, and I have no reservations in suggesting that others avoid that particular school altogether if the person that I referred to has anything to do with managing teachers.

What did I learn? Well, I certainly wouldn�t hang out for a release letter in the future. I would inform my old employer that I was heading home. After a couple of weeks of R&R I would simply come back to Taiwan on a new visa and go through the ARC process again.

Finally, no I don�t agree that Kojen nor Jordans are to be avoided. Having taught prior to my experience at Jordans, my expectations were much higher than most. Whilst I wasn�t the only teacher to have problems with that school and leave, one of the guys who was only here for a year did remain at the school. He just accepted the good about the job, ignored the bad, buckled down and did his job. He left Taiwan happily enough at the end of his contract and didn�t get screwed. Had I become emotional and claimed that the school should be avoided by everyone, as you have decided to do about Kojen, the example of the fellow who stayed would have proved me wrong. In fact, if anything has become clear from my experience, it is that my comments regarding Kojen were right on the mark � Kojen doesn�t suit everyone but shouldn�t be avoided just because some such as yourself suggest it should.

[Aristotle]

Chain schools are like wild snakes, if you play with them there is a good chance you will get bit. Every chain school I know of on Taiwan is run by ego-centric business people. Real teachers don't need to buy a franchise as they know what they are doing.
You also have to take into account that many of the people on Taiwan and the government of the R.O.C. are openly and blatant racist. You are a foreigner that means you are a lower life form, a servant and always wrong.
Unless you pucker up and obey your master you get beat.
Don't work for chain schools!
A.

[brian]

If teachers shouldn't work for chain schools, who should new comers work for? Pop Fly has graciously nominated a school that he recommends, so now its your turn. I dont think that it is particularly helpful to suggest the removal of one option without the suggestion of another.

I know that I have asked this question of you before, but I didnt seem to get an answer. It would be great if you could give us a short list of schools that offer a better than average chance of giving newcomers a legal and trouble free run. No guarantees of course, but just some specific details for them to work off should they choose to take your advice and ignore the chain schools.

Despite my one negative experience above, I have had years worth of positive experiences with chain schools. I personally feel that newcomers would be crazy to ignore the opportunities that they offer, but I am certainly open to any suggestions for schools that you think may offer better opportunities.

[Aristotle]

I am sorry but that kind of information is usually restricted to members only.

[brian]

[Aristotle]

As requested, here are several lists of reports both good and bad.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?Taiwan
http://teachtaiwan.community.everyone.net/commun_v3/scripts/topics.pl?NodeID=126131&ClientID=110842
http://www.tealit.com/forum/index.php
http://www.geocities.com/graylist_database/Taiwan.html
Happy hunting.
As for the recommendations of good schools. If you would think about it a little more you would understand why they are not given out so readily.
A.

[brian]

Thats great Aristotle but still not what I believe we are due. These lists are not new and although there are a few genuine negative comments about chain schools, the posts dont really back up your contention that chain schools be avoided. Most importantly though is the fact that they warn who not to work for, but provide very little info on which schools are good to work for.

As you continually state that chains schools should be avoided, I would be interested to know which schools you recommend your members should sign up with. Many of the regulars on this board recommend chain schools for newbies, but as you dont who is that you recommend?

[Aristotle]

I am sorry Brian but I am not really sure what additional information you are requesting. If you want to know which schools are recommended by SSETT, apply for membership.
Otherwise do your own homework.
A.

[brian]

As I stated earlier Aristotle, if this is what you need to do to boost membership to your secret society, well that doesnt speak very highly of your society.

These boards are here so that those with some information and knowledge can pass this information onto other new arrivals. If you dont want to share useful information with the readers of this forum then at least have the dignity to refrain from rubbishing the opinions of others and creating uncertainty with readers. You state that you have helpful info including a list of recommended schools but are unwilling to share this info with us. This doesnt speak very highly of you and seems awfully petty if you ask me. Well, each to their own I guess, but at least we all know where you stand on the subject of actually helping teachers. Some society you set up there! Sounds like a real winner!

Is anyone reading this actually a member of this secret society of Aristotles? If so it would be great to hear from you as Aristotle clearly needs your help at this stage in showing how worthwhile his society is.