Job Discussion Forums

[ChrisRose]

If you work for an agency you are probably working illegally.

Dear teachers,

I have been struck by quite a dilemma.

I approached the EB for my 'Registered Teacher Status' unfortunately I am required to pay for my qualifications to be assessed. This is a tad upsetting since they are from HKU Space, CUHK SCS, and the HKIeD.

Now what does this have to do with working illegally or a dilemma?

Since i have been searching for the 'right' position for the last four months, my CV has been forwarded to a number of agencies whom provide teachers to local schools. But, the EDB please excuse me for being a tad forgetful regarding their new acronym, politely attached a copy of the Education Ordinance section 42 (1) to a letter to remind me to have my qualifications assessed at my own expense.
Quote "Section 42 (1) stipulates that no person shall teach in a school unless he is a registered or permitted teacher......,<SNIP> shall be liable on conviction to a fine at level 5 and to imprisonment for 2 years."
You will note that neither the school nor the agency are liable, but the teacher him/herself.

I have been offered a post in a school to replace an agency teacher, hence I stipulated that they must put in the Permitted Teacher Registration. Alas today after finally managing to schedule and meet the English panel head, he stated he thought that the 'agency' did all that. Alas, this is not possible, the application must be signed and stamped by the school supervisor.

Now, I know practically if not all agencies are either unaware or plead ignorance, that does not change the fact that the teacher is liable. Today I had 2 conversations with the Teacher registration unit of the ED to clarify if there were any loopholes. They were very clear in this matter.

Approximately 2 mins. prior to commencing to type this, I had yet another agency call me and offer me a position going into schools to conduct training and workshops. I discussed this them during the telephone conversation and was told 'We have been doing this for years without any problems" and that I must be mistaken."

So, here I sit, unemployed and rejecting offers of employment.

Here is a link to the
Ordinance:http://www.edb.gov.hk/index.aspx?nodeID=268&langno=1

Comments and suggestions please.

Signed a very upset and unemployed teacher

[ChrisRose]

Please excuse the typos and punctuation in the post, I accidentally pressed send prior to proof reading.

Now I feel, sad and embarrassed.

[TRUBADOUR]

Are you a qualified teacher - with a Dip. Ed. or PGCE?

I don't get why you are dealing with agencies at all. What do you want from them?

Do you want full-time, permanent work? If so you should go directly to the schools themselves.

I guess the legal situation is such that you can't really take the jobs you are being offered without a rather substantial risk on your part. If you are looking to make a quick buck and jump the country asap, then maybe an agency will be what you need. Of course if one works illegally you have no rights and no protection from non-payment of wages, etc.

So you need to clarify what it is you want, what you are prepared to risk.

I'm not at all aquatinted with job hunting in HK, but it seems like most people work for the government as a NET or work for a private after-school school. Both of these would hire for themselves, or only use an agency as a means to find teachers. Once the agency puts you in touch with an employer or vice versa, then you should make the contract directly with the school. Not only is the best way (financially) but it seems to be the only legal way.

Try and stay calm and cool!

[ChrisRose]

I have a Dip.Ed from HKU SPACE, a Dip.TESL from CUHK, a Cert. ELT (secondary) from HKU space, the LPAT-(E) and maybe 10 - 15 other low level certificates in education and ELT.

NB the LPAT-(E) carries no value what-so-ever with the EDB department of Teacher Registration. They interviewer ripped it off the pile of my copies of certificates and said "This is not relevant to your application."

But, I didn't complete my 1st degree. As such....... the Teacher Registration department of the EDB said that since the above courses were registered as Locally registered exemption courses, I would have to pay to have them assessed.

I am poor, broke, in debt. Why might you ask, because, I can not find a suitable full time position. I have chosen not to apply via agencies. So, I am in a catch 22.

Yes, I do apply directly to schools, but without a 1st degree, they seem to prefer to hire people from agencies whom have had no background checks, no references, perhaps no experience and little to no teacher training. - This is not meant to sound sarcastic, it is however my experience of living and teaching in Hong Kong for the last 17 years.

[TRUBADOUR]

Right.
Best just to go with one of the nudge-nudge, wink-wink agency jobs long enough to get a flight outta there, isn't it?
Working illegally is common and do-able.
You shouldn't encounter any problems if you keep it quiet, but it's not an ideal situation.
How, may I ask, come is it that you've 17 years of experience there but are only now running into this particular problem?
EFL without a degree is a bit of a struggle.
Are you able to leave?
What are your plans?
I ask because it seems a little short term getting-by will need to lead to a longer term solution.
Good luck. Stay

[ChrisRose]

Well, I live in Hong Kong, it has become my home.

With regards to leaving, I cling on to the hope of finding a respectable and legal job so that I may begin a normal life and start a family with my wife.

Obviously, I wish to continue my education, I am / was in the middle of three more educational programs, alas I have taken a leave of absence due to financial reasons.

My plans are, keep searching, although today I was advised by a Chinese friend to cease teaching and seek bar work. Whilst as derogatory as it might sound at first, I suppose it would be an honest income albeit a hand to mouth income which would neither fund my further education or debt reduction.

But, I still have a few outstanding interviews for teaching / teaching assistant positions. Again the money would be pitiful but I shall attend and see what they can offer.

[TRUBADOUR]

Well, best of luck mate. I've only visited Hong Kong once, but thought it was a great place. Bar work can be cool, a nice break, those interviews might work out - and who knows what will happen in the future? I'm sure you things will work out for you. Good luck with everything.

[Charlesm_888]

[Marcoregano]

Hi Chris. I sympathise with your situation, but it seems to me that unless you get that all-important degree you are always going to be handicapped in the teaching profession, especially in qualification-obsessed HK. I often regretted never doing a PGCE, despite having a place lined up on 3 occasions over the years. Anyway, that's besides the point now, but if you really want to succeed in teaching in HK you'll have to figure out a way of getting a degree. With all your other quals you may be able to skip the first year, and get it in just 2 years.

[ChrisRose]

I completely agree.

However, I am most qualified for a Permitted Teacher Registration.

Unfortunately, with all the illegals being supplied to schools (both visa and teacher registration) it appears the schools are happier to take from agencies and avoid direct hire.

Why hire direct and have the hassle of interviewing, background checking, advertising, MPF and payroll administration, when all of that can be totally ignored by the use of an agency?

If the agencies followed the law, I wouldn't really have any issues to complain about. But if let's say 2000 - 4000 teaching post in HK are filled by people whom aren't willing to follow the law. Then I feel jibbed.

I have been offered 2 job this last week. I know it would be illegal to do either. I have HK residency, I have a Dip.Ed.(HKU) a Dip.TESL(CUHK) etc etc etc. But only the school can submit an application for the Permitted teacher status. So far I have not found 1 agency which has the practice of arranging that with schools.


So in the catch 22, no money to have my qualifications assesed by the HK qualifications council for Registered Teacher Status, no legal teaching positions jobs on offer at the moment.

[ChrisRose]

BTW I can get a degree within a short period of time.

My research dissertation through CoT / London U.

I am hoping to have the first draft ready for forwarding within a couple of weeks. The cost is also incredibly reasonable. Unfortunately it doesn't help with this cycle of can't find a suitable/legal position to survive on whilst I finish off the dissertation.

As for the risk of accepting a position I know to be illegal regardless the fact I know of noone whom has been prosecuted, well I don't wish to sacrifice my future career.

[Marcoregano]

So why don't you pay for the EB to assess your quals? Surely it can't be that expensive? And whatever it costs you'll recoup in salary soon enough...

[ChrisRose]

At the risk of humiliation, I am actually broke other than what I can have advanced against my credit card

The cost I believe is between 2400 - 4400 per qualification assessed.

Since, several are diplomas, I would want to enter as many as possible for the highest probability of combined equivalence. Naturally there is always the possibility of rejection.

It will be cheaper to just to complete the ACoT dissertation.

Hence my deepest frustration at having to decline jobs offered because the agencies whom offer them inform me that the schools don't require (incorrect) or will not submit for Permitted Teacher Registration.

[Marcoregano]

That seems ridiculously expensive. Well, in your situation I think I'd take my chances and go ahead and take up an agency job, even if it's technically "illegal". If there are 2,000 or more already doing it, it seems very unlikely you'll have any problems.

[ChrisRose]

I fully understand your suggestion.

However, I really do not wish to risk what I have worked and suffered (economically) for over the last 17 years.

This may well seem either prudish or even anal to many. However, I consider the risk unacceptable.

All I really desire is a level playing field in regard to seeking employment.