Job Discussion Forums

[fluffyhamster]

I've worked in China and Japan, and Japan especially has relatively clear and fair regulations regarding obtaining a work visa, and changing employer. There are other countries however where it sounds very easy for unscrupulous employers to reduce their teachers to virtual slaves, because in those countries it's apparently very difficult if not impossible for teachers to change jobs (Korea) or even to exit the country (Indonesia) without the employer's consent.

What other countries have systems that could make a teacher's life a nightmare in this type of way? Or now have such involved or strict regulations and paperwork chases in place (e.g. Thailand) that it would seem more hassle than it's worth to try to secure a job there, even if there are reasonable employers to be had? I am obviously interested mainly in SE Asian countries, but I'm sure that others will appreciate any potted information on countries worldwide.

[phantombedwetter]

I've lived and worked in almost all the countries you've mentioned and never had a problem getting a visa, changing school, or exiting the country.
I've also never been "Reduced to a virtual slave" or, at least only in my own free time

Fluffy, have you looked at yourself and thought the problems may be therein?
Admittedly, the bureacracy may be a bit tedious, BTW have you tried to secure work in the UK as a non-member of an EU country?

[fluffyhamster]

[Sadebugo]

[basiltherat]

I can only compare the places I've spent time in but I'd say and guess even now, Indonesia, particularly Jakarta, comes pretty high on the exploitative league table. What's more it's (or should that be 'was') not only employers but pretty much city / nation wide (e,g. government departments, local authorities; RT, RW etc).
Contracts, especially in this gig, count for pretty much zippo. I remember being eloquently told such a fact by employers when I used to do some hiring (and firing) in a couple of 'institutes' in Jakarta.
To me, the country's last name, at least when I was there, could aptly be called (Republic of) Exploitation.
On the flip side, tho, I guess, if you don't like and can't hack a place, for whatever reason - including exploitation - we're in the fortunate position of being able to .... as one of my ex-employers there would eloquently put it ...... 'f#$% off'
best
basil

[Justin Trullinger]

If you look at pay and benefits vs required level of training and qualifications, then compare to other professions with similar training levels, a lot of the first world ranks pretty high for exploiting teachers! (I know whereof I speak- both my parents are highly trained teachers in the US, and my girlfriend is from a family of many teachers in the UK- non earn comparably to others with about their levels of studies...)


But to return to EFL- I think the market is the determining factor here. I've heard that Korea and CHina, for example, can be quite exploitative. I wonder if this is because they have more EFL teachers than you could shake a board marker at? Here in Ecuador, we simply don't have as many teachers as we need, and schools can't be exploitative very long, or teachers leave to go to another. Wages are generally low, and conditions vary, but there aren't enough teachers to go around, and any reasonably good institute knows it has to fight to keep them.

So if you want lowish wages, but a good time, come on down!


Best,
Justin

[fluffyhamster]

It's one thing for employers to point out that there are others around who might work for less, if an employee moans about the wages they agreed to accept or demands a pay raise (and I wonder how many teachers in e.g. China "seriously" go in with that sort of attitude), but quite another for some employers to not pay people what was agreed, deny or withdraw benefits etc (and get really nasty if the teacher(s) dare to object), Justin. Employers should be protected against people leaving without giving notice (e.g. in Japan, Immigration can ask questions if, when renewing your work visa, you can't provide a letter of release stating that you completed your contract and/or gave the required notice with your previous employer/sponsor*), as employees are nominally protected against being fired without notice, but when there are regulations in place that prevent a teacher from "escaping" truly intolerable situations for the duration of even their current visa, unscrupulous employers have carte blanche to be as abusive as they like.

*Japanese employers can seem slow or unwilling to release this, though, and sometimes threaten to not supply one if (more like when, with some jobs!) teachers question anything. It's a bit of a grey area, but thankfully the letter of release doesn't seem the be-all and end-all to Immigration, who apparently are sometimes just satisfied that you've found a new sponsor and thus an "assured" income with which to support yourself.

[Justin Trullinger]

Certainly! I'm not defending the practice at all! (Sorry if that wasn't clear.)

Just pointing out that the practice appears to be more common in places where there is a surfeit of teachers, and less common in places where teachers are a resource that's harder to come by.

That said, I think we should all be careful to prepare, when going overseas, for exactly what is common in labour situations. I'm told that in Korea, for example, most people view a contract as being more maleable than we see it in the west. (Meaning that negotiation is still possible about the points in the contract.) In Ecuador, there is an attitude that is very accepting of things "beyond our control." (Tax rates just changed dramatically- foreigners complained, Ecuadorians shrugged.)

I'm not defending the rip-off tactics that are the norm in far too many teaching situations, by any means. But I'm aware that my expectations of what constitutes acceptable working conditions are by no means universal.

A technique that's worked well for me is, before going to a country, to contact as many foreign teachers working in that country as possible, and ask a lot of questions about their working conditions. It helps to give me an idea of what's "normal" within that country- if it sounds like I won't be able to accept it, I don't go. It also gives me a baseline, once I'm there, to know if a school is behaving in line with local norms or not.

BEcause I'm not at all happy with being ripped off by an employer, though it's happened. As someone who hires teachers, though, I'm also wary of applicants who seem to see a potential rip-off around every corner. Constantly accusing people of trying to take advantage of you is tiresome, and if they aren't, it's also insulting. Teachers should know their rights, and stand up for them. But they should shout "thief" or "exploiter" at employers for following normal local business practices. I've seen teachers get %&$& on for not knowing their rights, but I've also seen them make enemies by standing up for rights they didn't have.

Best,
Justin

[fluffyhamster]

Heh, your point was clear, Justin, it's just I got carried away with pursuing mine.

I agree that some teachers need to go with the flow and bit more and should appreciate that maybe their employers aren't totally out to get them, or at least that western principles won't always apply, every time something "bad" happens, and sure, there's obviously less to go around in some places - those who think they deserve better should obviously look elsewhere (assuming they'd be wanted and could get hired there).

Generally though there are some rights that I think teachers really do need to have (primarily, the ability to hand in their notice if need be and seek fairer if not better employment), and I wonder if many teachers can really afford to just keep changing jobs even in those countries where this would apparently be all too "easy". (Oops, there's me thinking aloud again - ignore me! ). Apart from the 'Foreigners are flaky' argument, why is it that regulations are stricter in some countries? Japan isn't really under consideration, because like I said, changing employers is pretty easy in the short-term at least, but even there, likely due to its "lifetime employment" model until quite recently, jumping ship is a bit frowned upon; when I turn to e.g. Indonesia though, I'm left scratching my head (I don't know much if anything about its society) - are people there so poor and desperate (a bit like quite a few English teachers LOL) - I won't say downtrodden - that they'll do or accept anything to "stay" in a job? Probably I should just get me to the Indonesia forum more!

[Llamalicious]

Yes, Indonesia is needlessly complicated. Well, I say needlessly, but The Powers That Be (Corrupt) find it all quite useful indeed.

For an overview of visa matters, see: http://www.expat.or.id/info/docs.html

And yeah, swing by the Indonesia forum. We have newbies, grizzled lifers, backpackers, grammar nazis (some self-aware, some not), cynical bar stewards and socks for EF management. Fresh meat always welcome.

[fluffyhamster]

Thanks, Llama. BTW, that IS one hot babe llama you got there. Do you know if they can be trained to wield whips? (PBW's been giving me ideas).

[naturegirl321]

I think that any country can be bad, it just depends on the employers.

[phantombedwetter]

[fat_chris]

[Llamalicious]

Fluffyhamster and PBW, I have notified PETA and the RSPCA.

Deviants.