Job Discussion Forums

[wOZfromOZ]

G'day
have a read of this one

I dont believe how this sort of thing can go on but it does.....
How about we round up a possie and do 'em over!

http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:1067937035-68377.txt

[Minhang Oz]

A lot of these tales are on the Job Discussion Board wOzza.
Then, amongst the same batch is the turkey who came here for earthly pleasures; says he can score twice a night etc.
The lack of regulation at both ends, recruiters/private mills, and some of the "teachers' that disembark, is a big worry for Chinese education, and for we genuine teachers.

[Steiner]

Yeah, Minhang, but I'm still for rounding up a posse. Sounds like fun.

Makes my job seem reeeeealy nice.

[Wolf]

It is crap. Sadly, there aren't enough of us to form posses to take them all down.

Aw, heck. If we made an example out of just one.

[Roger]

Kim's story sounds rather credible. Qingyuan is a place with a certain reputation - and it's strange that a town so close to Guangzhou never hitherto made it into this forum when so many other backwaters have been mentioned here! The reason that I believe is behind this is that Qingyuan is an unsafe location that attracts not even any Chinese.
Kim should have queried AIPUSEN why they sent her to a distant town. She must know that her visa obtained in Guangzhou IS NOT VALID FOR ANY OTHER PLACE BUT GUANGZHOU.
Then again, AIPUSEN too has a notoriously bad name for cheating expat teachers.

[Morpheus]

Great when is this circle jerk, oops I mean posse getting together. Count me in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no out me in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outno out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outno out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no outme in, no out, no in, no out, no in, no out

[Dalian Veteran]

Wow! Seeing experiences like that on the Job Information Journal are one of the reasons why I stayed with my former employer as long as I did, for fear that any new school I found would be even more shady than the one I left.

Basically, my advice to new teachers planning to teach in China is this: Be mentally prepared that there is a good chance you'll be screwed in some way or another, regardless of where you go. The difference between good and bad schools in China is that the good ones screw you less than the bad ones. And there is no such thing as principle as we know it. It's all about personal relations and connections, a.k.a. guanxi.

Think of it this way: teaching ESL in China is not really a paying job anyway. It's an experience and a builder for your resume or CV. Or, you can also think of it as a charity or an opportunity for building intercultural bridges between peoples of different societies. The name of the game is: do your one or two years, and then just leave and don't come back unless a big company sends you there with a competitive professional salary. I would also bring a large cash reserve when you come just in case you get screwed more than you thought you would. Its probably not a good idea to go to China on a totally shoe-string budget with only the shirt on your back.

What ticks me off though is that these unethical Chinese managers who thrive on screwing the foreign teachers are actually doing a disservice to their country. By giving Westerners bad experiences to talk about when they return home, these unethical managers are actually justifying Westerners' negative perceptions of China, only serving to strengthen the China threat theories and such that have been floating around in the West. But these kinds of managers don't even care about their own country or their country's image. They only care about money. But eventually, this greed will catch up to them.

[Gray000]

Y'know, as traumatic as it is when this crap starts happening, I wonder why more teachers don't grow a pair and stop working? That's a rhetorical question - I can think of as many reasons as you can. I mean, more teachers should grow a pair and stop working.

[Wolf]

[Herbie]

wolfy.....you are spot on mate....i believe you just described me to a tee...(except for number 6) of course

[Egas]

Dalian Vet are you for real? How many schols have you taught at? Your generalisations are more than a little extreme eg:

"The difference between good and bad schools in China is that the good ones screw you less than the bad ones. And there is no such thing as principle as we know it. It's all about personal relations and connections, a.k.a. guanxi."

Wrong. I have taught at some great schools, such as my current one. All it takes is one exception to falsify the rule. How many other great schools are there ut there that you don't know about? You shouldn't assume the tiny fraction of China and its schools and people that you have experienced represent the totality.

"Think of it this way: teaching ESL in China is not really a paying job anyway. It's an experience and a builder for your resume or CV."

Say what? See how far teaching kindergarten in China gets you when you re-enter the workforce back home. Unless you are a professional teacher (and the vast majority here are not) or something like a student of the language, culture or History, it may actually impede your career prospects.

It is true that there are plenty of unethical managers out there. But it is human nature to complain about things that make us angry, or that we feel are out of their control. Just look at the postings on the other countries' boards. Not exactly all love and light. The common denominator is not the evil people you meet when you work overseas (the Chinese say exactly the same about us), but about human perception.

The vast majority of Chinese people I have met have been VERY generous, friendly, although a bit overly curious. I have had people refuse to accept money from me numerous times, and even had taxi drivers return my wallett, and my bag to my doorstep, in two separate incidents when I left them in taxis.

I have also been ripped off a few times. But I am not going to say that this is the norm in China. Because it is not.


_________________

[Dalian Veteran]

You made some good points.

However, like I said, teachers should be "mentally prepared that there's a chance they'll get screwed", meaning they should prepare for the worst just in case.

Perhaps also it may be a Dalian thing. Almost all teachers working for private schools, and even public ones, in Dalian complain a lot about management. But as your location is Beijing, maybe the management standards are a little better. My reason for staying in Dalian the whole time was because of my life outside of work. But Dalian is weird in that in one sense it is very open to the outside world & comparatively developed, but in another sense, the management styles are quite conservative compared to cities like Beijing, Shanghai, and other relatively-developed hubs. Perhaps its because the northeast itself tends to be a conservative region? Hard to tell.

But as for the question of "Are you for real?" Yes, I spent three and half years in China. Its just that I stayed with the same employer, and most of the foreigners and young Chinese that I knew would complain very often about the management in their workplaces, this even coming from Chinese working outside of the ESL field, including my wife who worked in the civil aviation sector and witnessed things that are corrupt beyond belief.

[struelle]

[Roger]

Sorry to disagree with an otherwise well-versed expert such as struelle: I don't see much bargaining power in China, and the threat of walking away simply is no threat to a Chinese. It is more of a threat to yourself in that if you really want to stay for a while, you need a reliable and honest employer, and pray, where do you find such a rare creature in this country of empty promises and bogus contracts???
This is not Arabia where shopkeepers swear by Allah that their families are starving and they need the money for that trinket you want to buy at one-third the price the shopkeeper mentioned. You cannot walk away from an Arab shopkeeper - he will come after you with that trinket at one-third the price he mentioned before, but no CHinese is likely to do this!
In fact, what galls me is that Chinese bosses often tell you bluntly that they are making the rules, not the government or the cops, and you have no choice other than taking it or leaving it!
Even when the deal is utterly and patently illegal!

[struelle]