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Kirkpatrick
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 205
Location: China
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 Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Wages are indeed crap!! |
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| I have been in this business for over 12 years. From what I have found eather the wages are low and the school pays for housing and the visa stuff or you get a good salary and you are stuck shelling out for your visa and housing. Also a lot of school are holding back a portion of salarys until the end of the contract. As far as missionary's are concerned I think they need to be exposed for using religion to double dip. More people back in the western world need to know what is really going on. I am sure the local parishioners would pull back their support if they knew what was really going on. :shock: :shock: |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Ah, 12 years in the business, and 4 posts at Dave's. COuldn't possibly be a previous poster feeling a need to hide under a different name acusing "missionaries" of having a "concealing" nature.
Thanx for demonstrating my point
Uh, care to share which school, sorry, let me quote
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| Also a lot of school |
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| Also a lot of school are holding back a portion of salarys until the end of the contract |
which school/schools are doing this? I am more then willing to hop on the bash China bandwagon given a smidgen of proof. Don't know of any schools doing this.
There have been lots of complaints about lots of schools here at Dave's. I can't recall any complaints like you are talking about. How about sharing the specific complaint, a little evidence?
Ah, the missionary is bad syndrome again
First, what is a missionary? Could you please define so we can talk about this issue rationally? People you don't like? A specific group? While I may or may not be part of such a group, while I may or may not get support from back home, it in no way changes what kind of salary I ask for.
As I stated, a poster mention ELIC, that group has pulled its workers out of several coleges for wages and/or conditions not being good enough (other laowai quickly took their place)
So instead of buying into your myth, I would be interested in hearing your evidence, if any
Defintion of missionary
And which group is accepting low wages.
The vast majority I know of do not.
One Chinese school I know of does recruit foreign teachers under the "be a good christian and help the poor Chinese" but these teachers at this school do not come with support from back home, and probably would not be accepted as a teacher by many of the established group such as ELIC (they tend to be college students, and may be the new rules will crack down on colleges having college students as FTs) |
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Kirkpatrick
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 205
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: The facts!!! |
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For starters, as having grown up in a bible toting Church I know for a fact that missionaries would regularly come by and try to gather donations for the poor lost souls in Asia. This perticular denomination (Assemblies of God) even runs a bible suggling operation out of Hong Kong/ Shenzhen. The code for this was and probaly still is the bread factory.( bible bread of life)
When I first started teaching over I had 2 missionaries that were subisidized by this church. They also knew of me as having grown up with their missonary regional officer. I can give names too if you would like. Their attitude was take what ever job you can to get the visa, because after all it's God's work. They would get about$1,000 usd per month from the church and then their salary of 4,000rmb. mean while I had to survive on that salary.
I am Buddhist now and it really distrubs me that these people make money off playing peoples fears that are programed into them by the religous right. It's the same types that currently run the US government. |
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Kirkpatrick
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 205
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Schools holding back money... |
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| right now, EF and NDI pay on the 15th of the following month for wages worked the previous month. that means by the end of your contract you are owed 1 1/2 salary flight bonus and visa reimbursement. the sum total comes to something near 23,000 rmb |
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redpiston
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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So instead of buying into your myth, I would be interested in hearing your evidence, if any
Defintion of missionary
And which group is accepting low wages. |
ELIC, when I worked near a school that employed teachers from this group, they only made 2000RMB per month.....their members had very little cash to do anything fun so they did seem to suffer a lot from depression.
Well except the one ELIC teacher that ran off with his student....now that was one member that didn't let the man keep him down.... |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Wages are indeed crap!! |
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| Kirkpatrick wrote: |
I have been in this business for over 12 years. From what I have found eather the wages are low and the school pays for housing and the visa stuff or you get a good salary and you are stuck shelling out for your visa and housing. Also a lot of school are holding back a portion of salarys until the end of the contract. As far as missionary's are concerned I think they need to be exposed for using religion to double dip. More people back in the western world need to know what is really going on. I am sure the local parishioners would pull back their support if they knew what was really going on.  |
This is a joke, right?
If not, then I can only say I'm surprised it took the schools 12 years to realize they're overpaying. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| They would get about$1,000 usd per month from the church and then their salary of 4,000rmb. mean while I had to survive on that salary |
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Well 12 years ago 4,000 was very very good. Right now, it ain't the lowest. Ain't the best. At my uni, for 18 hours, it would be average
So they were getting the same salary as you. How is this lowering wages???
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| This perticular denomination (Assemblies of God) even runs a bible suggling operation out of Hong Kong/ Shenzhen |
I have no philosophical problem with smuggling books into any country, though the bible is legal to buy in China. Of course, if they get caught, they should not complain for being punished. Non-violent Civil Disobedience for what you believe in is something I will always stand up for, even when I don't agree
BUT WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH
1) What is a missionary (smuggling books is not what I would call a missionary)
MORE IMPORTANT
2) What does it have to do with lowering wages???
Kirpatric
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| Also a lot of school are holding back a portion of salarys until the end of the contract |
Still waiting for some of your examples, so I can believe you and we can properly bashed China together
RP
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| ELIC, when I worked near a school that employed teachers from this group, they only made 2000RMB per month |
I won't dispute your experience, I don't know. Nor will I ask what school, whisch isn't wise, though you can tell us if you feel comfortable. i would be quite interested in the province. 2,000 is below the legal limit, but ELIC is a legal provider of teachers, so that seems strange.
I would agree that ELIC members get the lowest wage of almost anyone. But in contradiction to the whole "missionary hold down wages theme" ELIC is the most clearly non-missionary group. I wanted to be in a group, and couldn't join ELIC because I had to raise too much, and because I would be too tightly controlled. ELIC's restrictions are probably tougher then the government on bible activities. They are clearly a teaching group, which is why they have never been hindered by China
But in return for lower wages, you gain protection, proper work environments, complete medical. You know what you are going to teach, and will be prepared. None of the hassles and deceptions many of us deal with. It's a trade off. It is a teach in China organization In Henan I know every college to which they supply teachers. Teachers were pulled out of two schools because of low wages and conditions.
. I would be very interested in which province at least.
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| their members had very little cash to do anything fun |
n
But isn't this the exact opposite of what the others are saying/complaining about? That these "missionaries" (which ELIC is definitely not) have too much money because all of their extra support
A lot of contra dictions, perhaps based on willful myth conceptions.
Also, it seems that a successful group like ELIC, the dozens members I have known have been happy, RP only knew of ones that were depressed and broke, and fooled around with students (immediate expulsion from ELIC ...). One thing needing to raise money does, is ensure (somewhat) the caliber of the candidate. Church members just don't give money willy nilly to every person that wants to come to CHina. It is a challenge
But if you work in a college that uses ELIC, I will agree the wages are most likely not top. Also another reason is that for its traditional teaching programs ELIC targets top colleges (lowest wages) and normal colleges (lowest wages) When you have enough experience and a MAsters, ELIC may set you up starting a English curriculum and a new, highly underdeveloped area. Fluent chinese, a MA in the field, and years of experience are requisites. Not a missionary program
Last edited by arioch36 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TexasHighway
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 779
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I am Buddhist now and it really distrubs me that these people make money off playing peoples fears that are programed into them by the religous right. It's the same types that currently run the US government. |
Wow, it appears you are even less tolerant of contrary religious and political views than those that you so broadly condemn. Since you claim to have been �reprogrammed� as a Buddhist, when are you going to reach nirvana and chill out? Live and let live. |
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jeffinflorida
Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 2024
Location: "I'm too proud to beg and too lazy to work" Uncle Fester, The Addams Family season two
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Wages are crap. This is not a new idea or topic.
Many of those working in china now are working for slave wages.
I chatted with an Australian fellow yesterday. He is HAPPY with the 4000 rmb a month they pay him to teach English...
I used to think the chinese were morons based on their lack of common sense but now I think it is the FTs who are the morons for working for chicken feed... |
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redpiston
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: |
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I
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| would agree that ELIC members get the lowest wage of almost anyone. But in contradiction to the whole "missionary hold down wages theme" ELIC is the most clearly non-missionary group. I wanted to be in a group, and couldn't join ELIC because I had to raise too much, and because I would be too tightly controlled. ELIC's restrictions are probably tougher then the government on bible activities. They are clearly a teaching group, which is why they have never been hindered by China |
Well I agree that they are tightly control but not as to the teaching content .... as a matter of fact they are given the criteria for activities and performance that carry a message. The activities I have seen have been missionary in nature. There activities are monitored closer than any group I have ever seen. On one occasion when a group of us wanted to go to a dance club, the ELIC participants were chastised upon their return and one member told me later that she wasnt supposed to mix with the non-ELIC members anymore at the direction of the groups leader.
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| i would be quite interested in the province. 2,000 is below the legal limit, but ELIC is a legal provider of teachers, so that seems strange. |
I can only report what members told me...
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| ELIC is the most clearly non-missionary group |
sponsored by churches and adhering to educational material that contains a message of Witness.
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But isn't this the exact opposite of what the others are saying/complaining about? That these "missionaries" (which ELIC is definitely not) have too much money because all of their extra support
A lot of contradictions, perhaps based on willful myth conceptions. |
you have drawn a flawed conclusion ....they are keeping wages down because they are willing to work for lower wages..... the support services, such as field trips to the orphans, are paid for by donations. Their actually in counrty spending money is very low and due to this low wage they are kept on campus and have very little mobility.
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| Also, it seems that a successful group like ELIC, the dozens members I have known have been happy, RP only knew of ones that were depressed and broke, and fooled around with students (immediate expulsion from ELIC ...). |
Yea, he was kicked out .. well after he took off with the girl and I have know others who stayed on in china after they left ELIC and even others who have left in mid contract...I have also known those who finished their contract and went back to the west ... one who lived next to me and cried continually, I am still in contact with and well aware of the emotions that accompanied her experience in China.
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| Also another reason is that for its traditional teaching programs ELIC targets top colleges (lowest wages) and normal colleges (lowest wages) |
Now what I have wondered about ELIC is why would a teaching organisation play to universities and expensive schools. As it is not charity organization, then what is the purpose of a religious organization tht seeks high end schools to ply their trade...missionary work is their main goal. Also many of these schools are in the pocket of the party, insure the acceptance of ELIC as a teaching org....after all they assist party members in their schools making a profit and benefiting in the lower wages.
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| When you have enough experience and a Masters, ELIC may set you up starting a English curriculum and a new, highly underdeveloped area. Fluent Chinese, a MA in the field, and years of experience are requisites. Not a missionary program |
They do sponsor the more driven members to a program (at a Normal University in the North East) in which primarily oral Chinese is spoken to further missionary work in the form of Education programs...
I have no beef with ELIC except that I would never work at a University that employs them as they tend to create two camps, one theirs and the other anyone who is not ELIC. This diversionary tactic is employed to protect their members but also serves to create an environment which is uncorfortable for the normal
FT serving at the same school. |
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Kirkpatrick
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 205
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Well guy's and gals 4,000rmb back in 1994 sure went a hell of a lot further then now. Can't tell me there's been zero inflation in all that time. Shyte check the news papers. China has an 11% growth rate. wages should at least keep up with the cost of living.
As far as holding wages back New Dynamic Institute does this. They are very slick by saying they with reimburse you at the end of the contract. I didn't think any school could be this bad. After paying for the visa, 3 months rent, medical check,going back and forth to Hong Kong, and resident permit. They also pay on the 15th of the following month. So basically at the end of a contract a teach would be owed something like 25,000rmb. I highly doubt that the school will pay up. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Dear Kirkpatrick,
I've posted on this very topic since about 2000, and I honestly now feel that it has gone beyond kicking a dead horse. |
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TexasHighway
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 779
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| I've posted on this very topic since about 2000, and I honestly now feel that it has gone beyond kicking a dead horse |
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A lot of us weren't around in 2000. So what is a dead horse to you may be a newborn foal to others. Also, it is summer vacation now and many of us have entirely too much time on our hands. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Again, I would want to know what province this was (not asking for a specific school)
As I said, here in henan, what you have said is definitely not the case.
yeah, I would think going to a dance club isn't the type of thing to fit into the ELIC org, and members are briefed
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| the support services, such as field trips to the orphans, are paid for by donations |
Oh, terrible. While other laowai are at dance clubs ot taking part time jobs, they are going to visit orphans and other such activities. All the ELIC members I knew in henan, they wanteds to take part in such activities, it is one of the reasons why they joined ELIC. You just happen to know ELIC members who were working for illegaly low wages, and came to have sex with Chinese students, and were all depressed, It's truly a wonder China still lets them at large!  It is a wonder they still exist
But it is true, ELIC has strict standards and when you come to CHina, you are not working on your own, but part of a team that has many responsibilities. You are not a free player, which is, as much as I would like, I couldn't be ELIC
And now we much match this with some one else's complaint that they go to Thailand on their vacations (true once a year, as I recall) and have too much fun and have the good life.
PS Never said they targeted rich schools. Normal schools are the poorest. But what is it to you which schools they target? |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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So kirpatric is complaining that these terrible "missionaries" (still wish people would define this word. Anyone who ever talks about God while in CHina? Or someone who receives support from home?)
These terrible missionaries were keeping wages down by accepting 4,000 in 2000 (Of course Kirpatric was keeping wages up by accepting the same amount)
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| New Dynamic Institute does this. They are very slick by saying they with reimburse you at the end of the contract |
I agree the NDI contract is terrible! I was told by a recruiting friend that a western person wrote the contract. I was told by the school that because they are a chain, they must use this contract. One of the worst contracts I have seen. They upped their offer by 2,000 a month, I turned it down. They also try to only pay one way airfare, and countless other items a laowai shouldn't accept
But they do tell you in the contract their payment method and all of this.
So they are not illegally holding back wages by trickery.
This is one school. You said a lot of schools?
Jeff
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| I used to think the chinese were morons based on their lack of common sense but now I think it is the FTs who are the morons for working for chicken feed... |
cluck cluck cluck! |
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