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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Oct. 2nd, 1968 |
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Today marks the 40th anniversary of the Tlatelolco "massacre". It was obviously undereported at the time in Mexico. Estimates range as high as 300 killed. Many look back at those times as a tragedy and question how it could have happened.
I was talking with somebody about those events the other day. They stated that the students were terrorists and engaging in revolutonary activity. The government did what it had to do to maintain order. He then said "Did any protests like that happen again?"
It's an interesting topic to bring up in class with students. It can lead to a lot of discussion and new vocab. |
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corporatehuman
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| And today there will be protests that start at 3pm. I forget the route...they have different ones. One goes from the angel to the zocalo. Another goes from site of the massacre to the angel I think...and I heard there is a third. People have told me that the protests tend to get violent and many people are arrested...I have no idea as this is my first one. Regardless, don't drive in the center after 3!! |
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Milenka
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Memorial de Tlatelolco |
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Memorial de Tlatelolco
Rosario Castellanos
La oscuridad engendra la violencia
y la violencia pide oscuridad
para cuajar el crimen.
Por eso el dos de octubre aguard� hasta la noche
Para que nadie viera la mano que empu�aba
El arma, sino s�lo su efecto de rel�mpago.
�Y a esa luz, breve y l�vida, qui�n? �Qui�n es el que mata?
�Qui�nes los que agonizan, los que mueren?
�Los que huyen sin zapatos?
�Los que van a caer al pozo de una c�rcel?
�Los que se pudren en el hospital?
�Los que se quedan mudos, para siempre, de espanto?
�Qui�n? �Qui�nes? Nadie. Al d�a siguiente, nadie.
La plaza amaneci� barrida; los peri�dicos
dieron como noticia principal
el estado del tiempo.
Y en la televisi�n, en el radio, en el cine
no hubo ning�n cambio de programa,
ning�n anuncio intercalado ni un
minuto de silencio en el banquete.
(Pues prosigui� el banquete.)
No busques lo que no hay: huellas, cad�veres
que todo se le ha dado como ofrenda a una diosa,
a la Devoradora de Excrementos.
No hurgues en los archivos pues nada consta en actas.
Mas he aqu� que toco una llaga: es mi memoria.
Duele, luego es verdad. Sangre con sangre
y si la llamo m�a traiciono a todos.
Recuerdo, recordamos.
�sta es nuestra manera de ayudar a que amanezca
sobre tantas conciencias mancilladas,
sobre un texto iracundo sobre una reja abierta,
sobre el rostro amparado tras la m�scara.
Recuerdo, recordamos
hasta que la justicia se siente entre nosotros.
p.s. The 2 de octubre demonstrations never get violent and nobody gets arrested. They are actually interesting if you want to learn more about this country. |
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notamiss
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 908
Location: El 5o pino del la CDMX
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| What I have heard is that the genuine 2 of October protesters and protests are peaceful but that in recent years vandals with no political agenda have sometimes infiltrated the demonstrations and caused property damage along the route of the marches. |
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corporatehuman
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Memorial de Tlatelolco |
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| Milenka wrote: |
p.s. The 2 de octubre demonstrations never get violent and nobody gets arrested. They are actually interesting if you want to learn more about this country. |
That's weird. On the news today they showed people breaking windows and vandalizing. Also my girlfriend went and she liked it until people started spray painting a Starbucks...then she didn't want to participate in the march anymore. Anyway for the most part I imagine it's peaceful (I had to work.)
EDIT: I just checked La Jornada and found this.
Las marchas se realizaron de manera pac�fica. Sin embargo, grupos de j�venes con el rostro cubierto con paliacates o m�scaras antigases se infiltraron en el contingente que parti� de Tlatelolco y provocaron desmanes en la avenida Madero, entre las calles de Palma e Isabel la Cat�lica, causando da�os a comercios y bancos de la zona...
Also:
Las 20 personas detenidas ayer por los enfrentamientos con la polic�a en el Z�calo capitalino llegaron ��nica y exclusivamente� con el prop�sito de provocar y agredir, sin tener vinculaci�n afectiva e ideol�gica con la mayor�a de los ciudadanos que conmemoraron los acontecimientos del 2 de octubre de 1968, inform� el Gobierno del Distrito Federal (GDF)...
and they were really young of course:
De los detenidos, 11 j�venes, de 16 y 17 a�os, fueron trasladados a la agencia especializada en asuntos del menor, y el resto, de entre 18 y 23, a la agencia 50 del Ministerio P�blico, con registros videogr�ficos, acusados de robo agravado, da�o en propiedad ajena, ultrajes a la autoridad y pandillerismo; adem�s, se solicit� la intervenci�n de visitadores de la Comisi�n de Derechos Humanos del Distrito Federal en las diligencias.
But overall the march sounded like it was definitely relaxed. I respect the history of the march and its importance to the country, but it's a lastima these people infiltrate the march to cause trouble and as a result turn people off to the cause. Definitely they were not in the majority, and the same thing happens in the U.S., but its frustrating nonetheless. |
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thelmadatter
Joined: 31 Mar 2003
Posts: 1212
Location: in el Distrito Federal x fin!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: protest parade |
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Saw the very beginning of the march as it passed through Juarez Street crossing Eje Central. Watched for a bit and it was pretty peaceful. Love how communists and anarchists are so comfortable marching together. heh (I sympathize with the march.. anarchists and communists... not so much)
Saw a few objects lobbed at the Sears building and some spray painting but all-in-all not bad. Got a couple of pics.
Only thing I saw that was a little worrisome was that from time to time a group would break into a run screaming "corran corran".... thing was there was a whole lotta people.
Youthful exhuberance... think I had that once! |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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I saw some video footage of the march last night on TV. Nothing peaceful from what I saw.
Anyways, I think that Diaz Ordaz did what he had to do to maintain order. The world was a very different place back then. Tlatelolco was one of the reasons there was never a real communst insurgency in Mexico. People realized that the government would crush any civil disturbances or uprisings.
In Peru the Sendero Luminosa started in some universities and it's leader was a commie professor. Too bad the Peruvian government didn't crush them before they were able to start an uprising and a terrorist war.
Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. |
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El Gallo
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
Anyways, I think that Diaz Ordaz did what he had to do to maintain order. The world was a very different place back then. . |
Right, and the Ohio National Guard was right, too, at Kent State |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Tlatelolco was one of the reasons there was never a real communst insurgency in Mexico. People realized that the government would crush any civil disturbances or uprisings. |
Export that to Chile and you get Pinochet.
But hey, what's a couple of thousand of the 'disappeared'? |
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El Gallo
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 318
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| El Gallo wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
Anyways, I think that Diaz Ordaz did what he had to do to maintain order. The world was a very different place back then. . |
Right, and the Ohio National Guard was right, too, at Kent State |
Four dead in Ohio.
The Kent State "massacre" was an event preceded by several days of looting, rioting and arson. Police, guardsmen and firefighters were attacked by the rioting "students".
I did riot control training exercises with the guard, and I played the part of a riot leader. Once there is a direct threat to the lives and safety of the guardsmen they are authorized to use any available force, including deadly force.
Have any of you ever been in an actual riot situation?
I have.
I'll take absolute law and order over anarchy anyday.
Last edited by Prof.Gringo on Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| El Gallo wrote: |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre
Check out the comments after the article. |
I did.
"According to Stratfor, the riots were "in part Soviet-inspired". They allege that the KGB station in Mexico City (the largest at the time) was trying to bring down the Mexican government in order to destabilize the United States."
Sounds like Diaz Ordaz knew what was going on at the time and he took drastic measures. |
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Milenka
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
I did riot control training exercises with the guard
(...)
I'll take absolute law and order over anarchy anyday. |
Well, now I get you. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I did riot control training exercises with the guard, and I played the part of a riot leader. Once there is a direct threat to the lives and safety of the guardsmen they are authorized to use any available force, including deadly force. |
You're saying this was this case at Kent and Tlatelolco? Or Tianemen for that matter?
Gotta hand it to you...you're the first I've seen to come on this forum and try to call mass murder something good. There's a special place in hell they reserve for folks like you, least I hope. |
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lisa1968
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Been away from the forum for a while, but this has definitely brought me back!! First of all, Prof. explain "massacre". How can that be put in quotation marks?
Have to agree with Guy on this one, you are gonna fry! |
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