Job Discussion Forums

Song&Dance · Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 176

Ignore, for the moment, that Crazy English lost a major copyright case in Beijing but all web references have been deleted.

Crazy English is in fact losing market share in all major Chinese cities because people are on to the hype that does not produce the promised results.

Crazy English will come to a school near you, in the hinterland, soon, because they have lost credibility in the major markets.

In fact, there is no scientific basis for the Crazy English methodology.

"For 200 rmb we will make your English better in 2 days." Reminds one of a snake oil salesman!

Why was Crazy English so lovingly embraced for so long by so many? Xenophobia, it is a local product that appealed to local people. Watch Harper's magazine for a September expose on Crazy English, a rather negative piece.

China is know for its fake products so why not a fake english teaching methodology? lol

Moon Over Parma · Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 819

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/28/080428fa_fact_osnos

It is ironic that entrepreneur Li Yang is married to an American, but regularly uses his bully pulpit to expose rhetoric against America, English and "the west."

http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/09/17/china-has-crazy-english-gone-crazy/

Li's a scumbag, profiteering off of latent (and sometimes blatant) racism, xenophobia and jingoism. However, I fail to have sympathy for the marks who fall for snake oil salesman Li.

Ever watch one of his "Crazy English" videos? 15 minutes of him hamming it up (he's good at public speaking, I'll give him that) just to get the suckers to enunciate the "p" sound by holding up a booklet and having them blow on the pages.

15 minutes.

FIFTEEN minutes!

I'm trying to figure out how anyone with a semblance of sanity could believe they would walk away from one of his 3000 RMB seminars thinking they'd speak English fluently.

loboman · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:41 am Post subject:

Crazy Eddie was a New York icon for many years....

But ultimately, he went to jail....

Is there a connection here?

Moon Over Parma · Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 819

Song&Dance · Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 176

Tong ji University asked me to go to Urumqi for them to teach a 7 day seminar on how to teach EFL. 400 Chinese middle school teachers. Before the first session they were congregating in the foyer chatting about Crazy English very favorably.

I did not know how to begin since i am so down on CE.

I just stood in from of them for a few minutes, silently contemplating how to begin. I knew if i started off criticising crazy English, which was what i really wanted to do, I would lose them and never get them back.

Then I noticed a man in a suit sitting 2/3rds of the way up the left aisle and on the aisle seat. I ran up to him and yelled Ni Hao! He almost fell out of his chair. Everyone gasped and then laughed. i sauntered back to the front.

I stood there silently, looking. I saw a nattily dressed woman up the right aisle and i ran up to her and yelled Ni Hao! She was truly startled because she was not expecting that I would do the same thing again.

I then swaggered back to the front.

I asked the group if they liked what I had done. NO NO No came from around the room.

Then I explained that when CE suggests that Chinese find a foreigner and run up to them and yell HELLO!, some offended foreigner is going to slap the Chinese silly.

From that point on, I owned that audience and CE was finished with them.

william wallace · Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 2869 Location: in between

Hey! Parma, thanks for those 2 links...he's an arrogant exploitive a-hole ...Welcome back to Canada.

Moon Over Parma · Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 819

Li and his Crazy English are a cult. A state-sanctioned cult. A surrogate religion. Let's be honest: many Chinese are looking for something to believe in. If not themselves then a person, if not a person then a group. Religion is hope dope. It feels that need. Crazy English removes the supernatural fairy tale and replaces it with some things many Chinese are familiar with:

Humiliation

A figurehead (the charismatic Li - and make no bones about it: he's a douche bag, but the man has charisma to spare and can work the audience in a manner that would make the Carny barkers of old green with envy.)

Collectivism

Li uses the national inferiority complex China has had (with the help from some really unfortunate historical events that occurred over the centuries) and that humiliation that has been ingrained through history and 50 years of Maoist indoctrination in just about everything and he funnels it into rallying cries of unity. He even picks out a "Devil" for his religion without religion: "the west." America makes a nice figurehead since it's the most powerful nation out there. Besides, Russia would make the party angry and shut down Crazy English faster than a "free tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiibet" flag would be trounced by paramilitary security at this year's olympiad.

So, Li is able to play on that ingrained sense of humility and defeatism, spin it around and provide rocket fuel for any individual so wrapped up in history and unable to deal with the present (forget about their ability to plan for the future!). This cultural insecurity has been the lucrative backbone for Li's retirement security. He takes these humiliation junkies and gives them their dose of confidence since his followers lack the emotional well being to do so themselves.

Independent thinking is not a trait of the mainland education/indoctrination system. So many people grow up with a parent government ("Nanny Government" if you prefer) they need that parental sense of self. Li Yang gives it to them, and unlike the government: if you pay Li Yang and you give his snake oil a try: he won't put limits on you. He won't limit what you can read/hear/watch/listen to/say/see. He gives you the parent without the burden. It comes with a fee.

Li knows this. He's no dummy. Begrudgingly, I say he's a genius. Anevil genius. Not pure evil., but evil, never the less.

Looking at Li and watching him in action: the guy has charisma. He's Chinese in his delivery, but he definitely has a Tony Roberts quality about him. If he was selling electronics, he'd probably own us all. If he was a coach: his teams would probably win. He has tremendous public speaking skills. He's also non-threatening in delivery and appearance. Li looks like a normal guy. He's well groomed, has an authoritative but non threatening voice. He has confidence and seems to know who he is, what he's doing and LOOKS like he actually cares. He espouses blunt yet complimentary platitudes and for every matter-of-fact, bitter fact (usually a fabrication, really) he has a witticism and a seemingly genuine smile. He has energy that is infectious (even if you hate the guy). He LOOKS like a guy you can trust. He also makes it a point to put concepts into "you vs. them" semantics and backs it up wit ha lot of "You're the better for this and you can overcome it and eventually conquer 'them'" rhetoric.

Unlike religion: he doesn't use guilt to motivate. He does not use fear to intimidate. To the contrary, he uses reassurances to motivate and he uses the idea of being able to succeed as an invitation to "go for it," but at a price.

From his traveling pulpit he does not talk about dead guys on wooden planks, mystical men in the sky, scientifically impossible "virgin births," etc. He talks (very pedestrian and in very basic fashion) ENGLISH as a foreign language.

That's the ruse. It's perfectly legal, too.

What he proselytizes is nationalism. It tows the party line. While he preys on an individual's weakness and insecurities, he doesn't tell them about that mythic man in the sky, or fictional places like "heaven and hell," but very real, very tangible things like the nation and one's financial security. He even uses English as the tool being used against the Chinese, and by using English they liberate themselves from a weapon holding them back as individuals - and as he reminds everyone so he can make Uncle Government happy: it can make China stronger.

He plays on the individual but includes "the nation" to appease the powers that be. That's how his cult has been able to flourish and grow.

Crazy English is no different than the moonies, the mormons, etc. It's a scam. A cult. A religion without religion.

Every "teacher" I've met who used CE learned their English outside of the CE system. That should tell you something. Hell, Li Yang learned it like most sane Chinese do: public school, university and self study. Oh, and an American wife....

un · Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 670 Location: on-line china

I recently completed teaching a term
at an Intensive Crazy English Summer Camp Session.

Due to my pre-contract hard-line intransigence, I was granted:
*DVD-TV
*AcademicFreedom>>MovieMagic

No doubt about it...these microphoned CE Trainers can pump up the kids.
The kids WERE highly enthusiastic.
Their throats would be sore from screaming in the EC classes.

I used one particularly relevantscene from Singing in the Rain...
...SilentMovie movie star Gene Kelly
is being given Diction lessons by a pedantic trainer...
...and Kelly and his buddy do some artistic-surrealist Transcendence...

Song&Dance · Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 176

Un - from your posts it appears that you hooked up with Helen at China TEFL and Crazy English.

Do you have a special thing for losers, cheats and predators?

Your credibility is suffering from an identity crisis.

un · Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 670 Location: on-line china

I am curious...
I continue to learn...

I learned some useful lessons from Crazy English
Likewise, they learned some lessons from Movie Magic

Here in China (and elsewhere), diplomacy-empathy are useful FT skills-to-be-developed.

eddy-cool · Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 1008

While Crazy English may be losing market share in Chinese cities (and the emphasis here is on 'may'!), I seem to find ever more imitators and hangers-on.

A number of summer camps and training centres order their students to practise 'Crazy English' for half an hour or so before classes actually begin .

The students are given lists of CE sentences and dialogues ()with Chiense translation).

CE is one of the daftest crazes!

wulfrun · Joined: 12 May 2008 Posts: 167

thx for the links, parma. nice comment from wang shuo -

Moon Over Parma · Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 819

I don't see Crazy English's business dwindling, either. If anything, it appears to be growing. My former university had a Crazy English seminar (and went well out of their way in attempting to make sure the FTs didn't hear about it) and I had several students who bought into it (one of whom failed miserably their final exam because they spent more time doing Crazy English than the coursework). In fact, the further south you go the more popular it seems (also, the further south you go the more outward hostility towards foreigners seems to exist). I suspect the xenophobia Li Yang exposes appeals to those regions.

un · Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 670 Location: on-line china

In the Shanghai CE office, one wall is a mural...
...of the Chinese Dragon and the USAmerican Eagle sharing the sky...
...with mutual respect and Win-Win Wink

Buck Lin · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 405 Location: nanchang china

There are 2 flaws in Lee's methadology. One is in getting proper pronunciation and the other is that to past tests students need to be able to read quickly. If they are saying the words they are reading to slowly. Students to get the most of his methods need to hear their own voices and be able to compare what they have said with the modeled voice.