Job Discussion Forums

Nabby Adams · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 215

I work in Japan and we will discuss this topic next week. I was just wondering if anybody who has experience in countries where the English level is pretty good if they could shed some light onto why they think it is so. I am specifically concerned with the state school/university susyem rather than language schools.

Japanese English teachers in high schools are not trained at all to teach communication and indeed most don't even have experience in speaking the language. Does anybody know how this compares with say French teachers in the UK or Dutch English teachers in Holland?

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

I'm at a Dutch university. It seems to me that most of the Dutch population under, say 65, speak functional English - not just English teachers. This is a country where one can function entirely in English in all aspects of life.

I think this is probably partly due to the fact that television programs in English are widely viewed, and have been for years. They're not dubbed here, as they are in other European countries where I've lived, though there are subtitles in Dutch in many cases. I think this exposure to the language probably gives a strong boost.

Further, Dutch people travel widely and I think they have more regular opportunities to use the language in functional situations.

Also, the stereotypical Dutch character is less concerned with accuracy and more so with fluent communication. This may give them the confidence to try even when they are aware that their language skills may be less-that-perfect.

Overall, I rather doubt that the general level of fluency here is highly related to teaching methods in school.

I think it's difficult to compare Dutch speakers with Japanese ones as too many of the conditions are very different.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Why are the English so poor at learning Japanese.? I was a guest at a university in England in the mid-1990's. The Department of Languages had to give up teaching Japanese because the students just could not do it !

They had to change what was a course in Basic Japanese into as course on "Japanese Culture".

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject:

Japanese isn't exactly an easy language (you need to become reasonably fluent in the spoken language - itself no mean feat - to stand much chance of succeeding with the written language, but obviously the longer you delay the writing, the longer you remain illiterate and dependent on romaji or furigana), and it would be an ambitious course that expected much from first-year undergrads (some of whom might not be majoring in Japanese?). Or maybe the teaching methods at that university left something to be desired, scot47, if absolute minimums weren't being attained by students.

jwbhomer · Joined: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 876 Location: CANADA

I'm with scot47. The problem is not so much a function of poor teaching methods. It arises from the immense difference between English and non-European languages, such as Japanese and Chinese. The gap is just too wide to bridge.

When one hears Japanese and Chinese speaking what passes among them for English, one should remember the adage about a dog walking on its hind legs. One should not complain that it is done poorly, but marvel that it's done at all!

johnslat · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:

The adage was first uttered by the irascible Dr. Johnson:

"I told him I had been that morning at a meeting of the people called Quakers, where I had heard a woman preach. Johnson: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."
Boswell: Life

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Chinese too

jwbhomer · Joined: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 876 Location: CANADA

jwbhomer · Joined: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 876 Location: CANADA

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Chinese too

JZer · Joined: 16 Jan 2005 Posts: 3898 Location: Pittsburgh

Well I think it mainly comes down to exposure. Lets compare two Asian cities Taipei and Tokyo. The English in Taipei is very high due to the fact that the Taiwanese economy relies heavily on American and European exports. So many people are speaking English everyday at business. In turn these people send their kids to learn English at a young age. Bilingual preschools are very popular.

JZer · Joined: 16 Jan 2005 Posts: 3898 Location: Pittsburgh

GambateBingBangBOOM · Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 2021 Location: Japan

JZer · Joined: 16 Jan 2005 Posts: 3898 Location: Pittsburgh

GambateBingBangBOOM · Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 2021 Location: Japan

I'm already well aware of the differences. Not all boys have boy brains and not all girls have girl brains. However, social factors play a very large role as well.

But moreover, I was writing about students in Japan. If it is harder for some or even most of the boys to learn the language required of them for their class, then they should be doing more work outside of class to learn it (I know I had to work really very hard to learn what I needed to learn for my language classes). The solution isn't to just do nothing. But that's what many of them are doing, because "boys can't learn language". If the suggestion went the other way, and the gender differences in the brain were being used to say that girls shouldn't be pushed into doing math, because it's a boys subject (as happened in the 50s and 60s) then that would be called sexist and the teachers who sat by watching girls get worse and worse while saying "It's thier brains! Girls just can't do math, or they CAN do math, but it's so hard for them because they're girls!" then that wouls be called chauvinism.