Job Discussion Forums

[m o n k]

Here's a theory I'd like to get some feedback on: Some Taiwanese consider it a loss of face to speak Chinese to a westerner because it gives others the impression that they are unable to speak English to the westerner.

I have examples to share which have led me to this theory, but I'll wait to see what you guys have to say.

[Taylor]

Dear Monk,

Indeed, you may be correct in your analysis. In my opinion, there are actually three aspects regarding face:

1. One can lose face (negative)
2. One can avoid losing face (neutral), and
3. One can gain face (positive)

I see these on a continuum. While it is possible that a Taiwanese person might lose face for not being able to speak English, I think it is more likely that someone will gain face if he or she can speak English fluently.

A lot of it depends on the setting and who is watching. For example, bosses, co-workers, classmates, etc.

I suspect that your theory is even more true in China, where folks are even more adamant about speaking English to gain face--because mainlanders are very competitive, in my experience.

Taylor
Kaohsiung 7+ years

[TaoyuanSteve]

An interesting idea. I haven't seen the lost face for no English, but I think I play the game with Taiwanese re: gaining face for speaking English. I kind of learned it from them. Taiwanese used to compliment my Chinese ability every time I gave them a Ni hao. Now I pour on the praise every time a local says something like "thank you" in English . I guess I'm giving face.

[Taylor]

Dear Monk,

Would like to hear your experiences regarding your original post.

Also, as for educational settings, do you think local teachers (Taiwanese) should speak only English to their students?

It seems that face might be the main issue, but does "No Chinese" instruction really help students comprehend English better?

Taylor

[m o n k]

Taylor,

I formed my theory after repeatedly having the following types of experiences:

1. Store workers speaking to me in Chinese until a Taiwanese person walked in the store. Then the store worker would abruptly pretend we had been speaking English. Very weird. (This type of thing has happened to me in various situations, not all involving store workers.)

2. Having Taiwanese ignore me or answer me as non-verbally as possible when I talk to them in Chinese. Yet I have seen the same people spend a lot of time trying to talk up a Japanese friend whose Chinese is almost non-existent. It seems like they are embarrassed to talk to me, but over-the-top willing to try and hold a conversation in Chinese with Asian foreigners.

Several white foreigners I know have had the same experiences. The ABCs and Japanese foreiners I know have never had this problem, even when their Chinese was pretty bad.

I have mostly had these negative experiences with younger to middle aged people, and I guess people who you could describe as more educated. I have never had a problem talking to the old men and women working at food stands. Taxi drivers also have no problem talking up a storm to me in Chinese.

I want to clarify a few things also, lest people jump to conclusions. The situations I have described are happening under everyday circumstances. I am not trying to strike up complex and irrelevant conversations with storeowners or people on the street. I do not think highly of my ability in Chinese; however, I do know how to order food or ask someone at Giordano if a certain shirt comes in a different color. I am not a weirdo foreigner, either, if you know what I mean. I have just noticed that (IMHO) it is much harder for a white foreigner to find opportunities to use his/her basic Chinese than it is for an Asian foreigner.

As for your question about local teachers and "No Chinese" in the classroom, Taylor, I think it is a good idea, and it works fine. I think it should be seen as a rule that can be broken from time to time. You don't want to spend 15 minutes trying to explain a word or concept when you could just have someone say the word in Chinese and have everyone understand instantly. In my classes I have asked someone in to say a difficult English word or phrase in Chinese so that I knew everybody would be on the same page. THIS often helps to save face, as nobody has to admit they don't know the word.

As far as the "No Chinese" rule giving face to the Chinese teachers, I very much doubt that it is an issue. I think Taiwanese people who can speak English well worry less about losing face for not speaking English. In fact, the people who talk to me most in Chinese are the local teachers. They encourage me all the time by starting conversations in Chinese. Even out in public at night markets, they will talk to me in Chinese. They, unlike some others, do not seem to worry about who is watching them, or who is thinking they can't speak English.

[TaoyuanSteve]

I don't know what Monk thinks, but I think all target language instruction absolutely helps in language acquisition, at least it has been my experience. Before I came here, I taught in my home country for quite a while. I taught numerous nationalities of esl learners as well as a broad range of age groups. I have always believed in an all English classroom. When I had to teach a class of little kids with zero English (and whose language I couldn't speak), I used methods such as total physical response exercises, flashcards, drawing pictures, gestures songs and games to teach the language with great success.

Plus there is definitely something to be said for the listening comprehension that is gained from hearing the language so often. When I was in a Chinese language course, the class was all in Chinese. I'm not even sure that the teacher could speak English if she wanted to. It did wonders for my language ability. I recently did a driving test for a car license in Taiwan. I found that I was able to understand what the examiner was telling me (I didn't bring a translator), even though the situation and a lot of the vocabulary were new to me, because I had developed a listening ability and an ability to use context clues. In short, I am used to experiencing new experiences and learning new Chinese vocabulary in Chinese.

It was not until I moved to Taiwan that I experienced so much translation in an esl classroom. IMHO, this is a bad method and its use, in part, explains why students can study English here for many years and still not be able to hold a conversation. Students here, I think, spend far too much time talking about English and not enough time developing a communicative ability in the language.

[Taylor]

Dear Monk & Taoyuan Steve,

Thank you both for your responses to my recent post.

Monk, I recall one recent comment on this board that Taipei "women" don't like it when a guy speaks Chinese. I thought this was interesting. I've only lived in Kaohsiung, so I wonder if there is a significant difference. I guess they might not like to see a foreign guy "go native" too extensively.

Taoyuan Steve, do you really believe that what occurred in the classroom was the deciding factor in learning to listen "in Chinese"? Surely you must have learned a lot outside the classroom, too. Personally, I learned a lot by listening to the radio and talking with my Taiwanese mother-in-law. Also, my book at TLI had lots of explanations and translations written in English to help us get acclimated. (Outside of school textbooks and English magazines, you don't see many bi-lingual texts).

I recall one class of 11 and 12 year-olds that I had in Kaohsiung. They had all studied at different locations before--some with all foreigners, some with all locals, some of both. When you looked at their abilities, attitudes, pronunciation, etc. it was very difficult to guess much about their backgrounds. Therefore, I think the student's personality and individual makeup is the real deciding factor.

Would love to hear the comments of others. WELCOME!

Taylor

[TaoyuanSteve]

You're right. My course was not the only determining factor in my Chinese learning, although it did help a lot. I'd actually credit my students for a lot of my learning. They are surprisingly good little teachers. I remember what must have been my first teaching day in Taiwan. One kid comes up to me and says, "laoshi, gei wo liang zhang tie zhi." Obviously, not understanding, I just say, "huh?" Kid repeats. Teacher still looks perplexed. Kid says again slower, makes a gesture for two and points to my stickers. Then the light goes on. "Oh, give me two stickers. Ok." Kid flashes a "V" sign and says, "yeah!" Kid got two free stickers and teacher learned his first Chinese sentence.

I think Monk is on to something re: face and English. I think English ability can be a chance to show off, especially if others are around. It seems to fit the pattern and may explain the Taipei xiaojie phenomenon. A lady can get big face by having the status of a western boyfriend and the ability to speak English to him. It also may explain a strange experience I had a while ago. There was a time I went to a shabu shabu restaurant and the waitress was very strange. Even though I had initiated by speaking Mandarin and she understood, she kept saying, " bu hao yi si, wo pa wo bu hui jiang ying yu." I kept reassuring her that I had no intention of speaking English to her, but she just had it in her head that she has to be able to speak English to talk to foreigners. She then avoided us as much as she could for the rest of the time we were there. At the time, I thought it was my Mandarin ability (I always assume communication problems are my problem. I'm not a native speaker of Mandarin), but was assured by my girlfriend -- and other patrons-- that what I said was clear and correct. She was just behaving strangely. Perhaps she felt she was losing face in front of all the customers because of her inability to communicate with me in English. I have also had instances where people have unnecessarily included English in a conversation, it seems, as a way of showing that they can speak English. English as a face-giving status symbol? Could be.

[Taylor]

Dear Readers,

Thanks again, Taoyuan Steve, for posting. I can certainly relate to your experiences with the little ones. Indeed, they are good teachers!

My question is: How can you maintain an "English Only" classroom setting if your students know that you can understand Chinese? Aren't they tempted to use Chinese to tell you something or ask a question? What if you had said to the little boy "NO CHINESE" when he asked you for two stickers?

Here is why I am asking. I will be back at my former school in Kaohsiung in January. While most of the students will not be the same ones I taught before, there will be some who "know" that I speak/understand Chinese. If it really is better to speak only English in the classroom, what are the best ways to encourage this?

I presume that local Taiwanese teachers might face the same issues--depending on the school. Hope to hear what others have to say.

Taylor

[TaoyuanSteve]

Interesting. I had this discussion with a friend of mine who has lived here more than 10 years. He believes his Chinese ability can be a real handicap at times. Kids know you understand and so often make no effort to communicate in English. In this sense, there is something to be said for the newcomers and those can't speak Chinese at all. Students are forced to find a way to communicate with these individuals and a lot of learning can occur in these interactions. I don't necessarily believe Chinese ability is a handicap in every instance. I believe it is useful especially for understanding why your students constantly say and write things like "I yesterday go shopping" and "There has many toys." I often turn my understanding of what they say into a learning opportunity. When a kid says "laoshi. Wo yao shang che suo." I tell the kid how to make the request in English. "Now, Johnny say 'may I go to the bathroom?'" Another way I use my understanding of the language to my benefit is in the teaching of new vocabulary. Instead of giving them a translation, I use pictures body language or whatever until the kids get it. They then give me the Chinese meaning and I simply say yes or no.

I guess the best way to ensure a mostly English environment in the classroom is through habit. I try to limit interaction in Chinese during classtime. The kids get it fast. Don't let yourself get in the habit of conversing with students excessively in Chinese during classtime and don't let them speak too much Chinese to you. I say mostly English, though, because kids will want to talk to you (and heck, we want to talk to them) and 100 percent English is sometimes not possible in some low level classes (at least not in a cram school setting in Taiwan where students speak English only in a classroom and the schools have really too optimistic expectations). I think rewards work well too. If your school has a reward program of some sort, this would be a good way to use it.

I guess your school's methods and style will have an impact as well. Some schools here use a lot of Chinese in their teaching of English and require their teachers to do so also. How much freedom and/or control do you have over how you teach a class in your particular school?

[martinphipps]

Monk, Steve, it could be a question of how many people in Taipei and Taoyuan can speak English. In central Taiwan (Taichung and Chunghwa) where I have been working, it seems few people in stores and restaurants can speak English so, of course, they speak Chinese. I even had one person in a store talk to me in Taiwanese and then apologized in Mandarin when I told him I didn't understand. Keep in mind that for many people here Mandarin Chinese is a second language they learn in school and they are actually being relatively polite when they use Mandarin to talk to foreigners.

You are right that people lose face when they can't speak English and that is one of the things I like about Taiwan: I never met an adult in Korea who was embarassed about not being able to speak English; instead, I encountered people who were angry with me because I couldn't understand their Korean, especially if I had told them (in Korean!) that I had been in Korea for a while. But if most people in the town where they live can't speak English, then they will be quite relieved (and surprised!) when they find out you can speak Chinese. Suddenly, you won't be able to get them to shut up and you have an excellent opportunity to listen to some spoken Chinese.

It is also worth noting that saving face doesn't just apply to the individual when they meet a foreigner: in such a situation, they may regard you as a representative of a foreign country and they would feel doubly embarassed about shaming not only themselves but also their country! People in Taiwan and Japan are keenly aware of the fact that foreigners in their country might get a negative impression of their country if they are perceived as being rude. Koreans don't seem to worry about this at all.

Perhaps you guys need to move to Taichung to practice your Chinese.

Martin

[TaoyuanSteve]

Perhaps you need to move to Taoyuan to practice your Chinese. The big three: Taipei, Kaohsiung and Taichung are the major business and industrial centers in Taiwan. Most educated, English-speaking locals can be found in those places. Taoyuan city, on the other hand, is way smaller and much more blue collar. It has a much smaller English speaking professional population and has a miniscule ex-pat community. Very few people here are able to speak any amount of English.

I am also very aware that for some in Taiwan Mandarin is a second language. Although, I would argue that for younger, urban people it is now their language of choice. I only need to observe my girlfriend's family in Kaohsiung to see this phenomenon. The older members of her family much prefer to speak Taiwanese and only speak Mandarin to my girlfriend (raised in Canada, so cannot speak Taiwanese) and myself. Her grandfather cannot speak Mandarin at all. However, the younger people speak mostly Mandarin in their daily lives and speak Taiwanese only to their elders.

I think you might have missed the point of the discussion here. Monk was referring to situations where it was already clear to the local person that you know Mandarin, and s/he is speaking to you in that language, but when another Taiwanese person approaches, they switch to English (or try to pretend that they have been speaking English with you all along, regardless of their actual ability). Read up a bit to find the other examples. The feeling is that some people just do not want to be seen speaking Chinese with a foreigner. It has little to do with manners, because it is actually pretty rude The theory is there is some face or prestige to be gained from speaking English to a foreigner or, conversely, face to be lost if one is seen by others as not being able to converse with the foreigner in English. I'm personally not sure what to think of that. Most people I've met are pretty receptive, willing, curious and even eager to speak to a foreigner. However, there have been times where the feeling has been similar to the one described by Monk.

[martinphipps]

Well, if it is really so hard to find people who speak English in Taoyuan then I would say, in Taoyuan at least, that there is something else going on: there's no reason for people to feel personally embarassed that they can't speak English. Rather they might feel embarassed that there is nobody around at all who can speak to you in English and they might feel that there should be, at the very least, somebody there who can speak to you in English. Certainly that I have noticed. People will want to get someone to speak to me in English even though I can speak Chinese.

Anyway, I have to wonder, Steve, why your reply had to be so rude. Did you think my post was rude? If so, I apoloogise. I was just trying to respond to Monk's original post and your own comments about the subject.

Martin

[Taylor]

Dear Readers,

My apologies for taking the original post somewhat astray! Here is what I was thinking about: I have been taking TESOL courses for the past year, so please allow me to share one concept that we have covered: code-switching.

I believe that code-switching (or, simply, language-switching) is the common issue in all the situations described. There are many reasons for people to switch from one language to another in the middle of a conversation.

While "face" may be an issue in some cases, it is not the only explanation...as we have seen in the other scenarios described. A young person in Taiwan who speaks less-than-perfect Taiwanese might switch to the Taiwanese dialect out of reverence. Personally, if I am being observed by parents or bosses in my classroom, I might speak 100% English because I do not like to have "outsiders" watch me try to speak in Chinese. I have one friend in Kaohsiung who speaks Chinese or Taiwanese to the locals that he likes....and only English to students or staff that he dislikes!!!

One other little example of mine--if my wife and I are at Wal-Mart or a garage sale here in Texas, I might say to my Taiwanese wife "Vamos!" when I am ready to go (if there are Mexicans around). Neither of us can speak Spanish at all, but just being around Mexicans makes me think about Spanish! It's really just that simple!

Let's try to see the big picture....anytime someone feels compelled to switch to another language or dialect, what are the underlying reasons? I think that will be of more benefit to our understanding this issue of code-switching.

Best wishes.

Taylor

[TaoyuanSteve]

Martin, try not to be so sensitive. My response was not rude. Show me where and how it was. We are dealing in a medium that does not allow for non-verbals (although we do have emoticons), so perhaps you reading into what I wrote?

Taylor I can relate to what you said about code-switching. It happens quite alot here for sure. Code-switching: there's a term I haven't heard in a while. Local English teachers code switch a lot in conversations. Only today I was eavesdropping on a conversation some were having. Suddenly one switches to English and says, "no way; bu ke neng." Even foreigners start doing it with each other sometimes. It really has to be done sometimes because some things don't really have English names. However, my friends quite often say "hao" when they could say ok.

I think I also am selective about when, where and to whom I speak Chinese. Like your friend, Taylor, if there too many outside observers in a class, I may elect not to speak Chinese. Ditto if I don't particularly like the person. I think we all have our own reasons why we choose to speak in whatever language.

I think sometimes there is a racial basis for the code-switch. I have experienced some reticence on the part of a very few locals when it comes to speaking Chinese with non-Chinese people. In the example I listed earlier, it is entirely possible that the lady who behaved strangely just could not grasp the idea of a Caucasian speaking Chinese. It crossed her wires somehow. She possibly had a mental image of all Caucasians speaking English and so, not being able to speak English, concluded that it would be impossible for us to communicate.

Monk's idea of a sudden code-switch for face gaining/saving may warrant further discussion.