Job Discussion Forums

[esglumac]

How many of you are proficient in the language? Whats your ability of speaking versus understanding? How long does it take the average person to achieve profiency ( years lived there, number of classes taken etc). feel free to post info about writing, reading, etc.

[kdynamic]

How well you end up speaking Japanese depends entirely on how hard you work. If you are serious about learning the language, I highly advise that you commit to long term study at a good school with professional teachers. Just "picking it up" will take a loooong time and leave you with Japanese riddled with bad habits. I hear this "ALT Japanese" all the time... people understand what they are trying to say so they think they are great at Japanese, but in fact their Japanese is quite broken. This is fine for daily communication, but in order to speak solid, clean Japanese that is of any use in a professional capacity, it requires serious study.

That said, if you're just talking about getting conversational so you can get by while you're here teaching English or something, then I have seen people get somewhat conversational in about two years with devoted study in their free time (working with a tutor, carrying around flashcards, etc).

Whenever ALTs ask me about learning Japanese, I always tell them to get clear from the beginning about what their goals are. If they just want to learn some conversational Japanese to enrich or make smoother their experience while they are here for a couple years, and don't plan on using Japanese after that, I tell them to learn common words, not worry too much about kanji past the first couple hundred day-to-day ones, and focus more on speaking and listening.

But if they have the idea that they want to become a translator or live in Japan forever and want to be fluent or what have you, I tell them to save their money and then quit their job and join an intensive language school. Unless they are the superdisciplined type who stay home weekends doing Heisig instead of hanging out with their friends. Those types are pretty rare (I certainly don't have that kind of willpower).

It's very easy to live here for years and never learn Japanese. I was talking to an ALT a couple days ago who has been here almost two years and still can't read hiragana and didn't know words like "ookii" and "isogashii"... he's a good guy and I am glad he is starting to learn the language now, but it just goes to show you can easily NOT learn anything just by being here.

Anyway, in conclusion, Japanese is a very hard language to learn well, but not that hard to pick up a little to get by. Learning it in depth is an interesting and rewarding experience, but if you have no reason to think you will need to use it in your future life or career, it's pretty much an academic exercise since it's not used except on this one far-flung archipelago. I am glad I am proficient in it, but to someone who plans to stay here a year or three and then leave and not look back, I would say: put in a little effort but don't expect to become fluent.

[cornishmuppet]

kdynamic, what's your job?

[Crab]

I completely agree with everything Kdynamic said. Very well put and accurate.

I have some personal experiences which support Kdynamic's argument.

I lived in Japan 6 years and can speak the language reasonably well, but like Kdynamic argued, I never studied formally and as a result have many bad habits.

My wife on the other hand, spent 8 years in Japan and is fluent. The difference being that she majored in Japanese Studies at university and always had a paid professional tutor while living in Japan - even after having passed 1-kyu.

FWIW, when we were last in Japan she worked as a translator for a major Japanese publisher of foreign literature and held an administrative position as the international relations person at a university.

If you're serious about becoming fluent in Japanese, it takes a very serious commitment. Learning to chat at a reasonably competent level will still take some effort, but there's a huge difference between that and becoming fluent.

It's not like learning a European language, so don't expect to just pick it up because you are already trilingual in English, French and German. Japanese is a very different kettle of fish...

Good luck!

[Shomon]

I have heard GENKI is good.

What other books, software etc do people recommend?

[Odango]

I used the Genki books awhile back and found them a great starting stone for learning.
I've been here in total of 3 and a half years but have only recently started studying seriously! Why I wasted to some extent those early years of my time here God only knows but that now cannot be helped. As Kdynamic said you can live here and pass time by without learning much at all.

If I could describe my level honestly, hmm, I can read a game magazine (with furigana) and a dictionary with abit of a huff, also watching TV at times I can seem to be able to catch almost 90% of what is said, other times I don't have a clue what's going on. Newspapers forget it, Magazines with no furigana forget it, TV news forget it.

I'm really trying to hit the books but heck it's a slow and labourious process and the biggest killer for me is the frustration. Since I'm going to be here for the long haul, I need to intergrate instead of being the stereotypical half wit foreigner who cannot learn their langauge

[kdynamic]

Odango, if there is any way you can go to a real Japanese school, do it. If you are serious about the learning Japanese, the last thing you want to do is burn out getting frustrated trying to go it alone. Real Japanese teachers with a real curriculum, and significant class hours, are the key. Yes, you can learn Japanese studying on your own, but it's so easy to get discouraged. It's better to do an intensive course than to drag it out forever.

It sounds like you are at around 3kyu level or so. This is a very difficult place to try to study all on your own, because while you know the basics, you're not at the point where you can read newspapers and novels and watch the TV news without it being a struggle. Get some time and money together and do a semester or a year at an intensive school. If you can spend that time concentrating on your studies and really focus, you'll made great strides. You'll jump up to 2kyu level and be in a MUCH better place to study on your own after that.

[esglumac]

yeah, Japanese is very hard. Would it help to take a beginning language class for 10 weeks before i come? Also, how many levels are there???

[kdynamic]

Any classes you can take will help. In fact, if you are coming with learning the language as a major goal, I would advise that you NOT come until you are conversational, or come, get conversational, and then move to the other side of the country -- otherwise you'll get sucked into an English bubble and never get out.

As far as levels go, the ones I was referring to were JLPT levels, which are a pretty poor measure. It's a flawed test. But it's the standard for now. There are 4 levels, with 1 being the highest.

[ShapeSphere]

[Zzonkmiles]

It helps if you study everyday or almost everyday. It's very easy to study earnestly for a week and then take three weeks off because you're too tired or too busy.

Also, you need to avoid hanging out with the other foreigners after work all the time. Ditto for Japanese people who want to be your friend just so they can practice their English. I'm not saying don't be friendly and ignore your fellow Westerners. However, there are only 24 hours in a day, and between working (usually teaching English), commuting, hanging out, eating, and sleeping, you're not going to have so much time leftover for actual Japanese practice.

I have 2-kyu Japanese and never took formal lessons. It took me 3 years of self-study to get to this point. It required a lot of discipline and a lot of isolation from other foreigners (such as going to the local bar where I was usually the only foreigner), especially in the beginning, in order to develop my listening and speaking abilities. Keep in mind that speaking is not tested on the JLPT.

Now I don't study so much anymore. I'm able to recognize about 75% of the kanji I encounter and can reasonably understand most conversations, news stories, and TV shows. However, unlike Kdynamic, I would argue that it's actually harder to study once you become competent in the language because the more advanced stuff you're likely to study is usually uncommonly used stuff like obscure grammatical elements or really technical vocabulary.

Good luck!

[Scruffy]

So my family has offered to treat me to some Japanese language books as a going away gift. But their offer expires soon, because it's taking me so darn long to choose my books. I'm not wanting a heavy handed academic treatment of the language. Rather I'm just looking for a good introduction. I took Japanese years ago and remember really enjoying it. We studied basic sentence structure, characters (don't know if it was kanji or those other two), and conversation. That's pretty much what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?

[Mothy]

[quote="Scruffy"] I'm not wanting a heavy handed academic treatment of the language. Rather I'm just looking for a good introduction. I took Japanese years ago and remember really enjoying it. We studied basic sentence structure, characters (don't know if it was kanji or those other two), and conversation. That's pretty much what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?[/quote]

Sounds to me like you would find Genki printed by The Japan Times useful. It's the book I've found the easiest to use and most useful. Of course I'm still terrible at Japanese, so that might lead some to say that it must not be that great of a book, but my lack of ability is only due to my own lack of willpower in studying everyday. But if I ever do actually develop a good work effort I have no doubt that Genki (parts 1 and 2) will provide me an excellent framework to start off on.

[NorthofAmerica]

I was in the Random Walk book store in Kyoto and couldn't find Genki

I bought "Japanese For Busy People 1" It's not bad but it's pathetically easy for far too long (obviously it IS lvl 1 though) and my biggest complaint is the lack of Kanji. I didn't realize when I bought it that there would be NO kanji. It is all kana meaning that even by the end when you are learning somewhat complex conversations you are talking about going to とうきょう. THAT SUCKS!

Sounds like Genki is the most supported by far. So far I have been here almost 7 months and with some studying and volunteer lessons every week or two I am hoping to do the JLPT 3 in December. I probably will only stay for 2 years but learning Japanese is just plain interesting to me and with few other goals in my life right now it seems like something to shoot for. Also it helps for meeting actual interesting people and not English leeches and frat boy foreigners.

I think your experience here will be sooo much better if you can speak the language on some level. That said my Japanese is atrocious but it's coming along

[esglumac]

yes, i ageee totally....the more Japanese one knows the more interesting people they will meet. While, Iam on the note of foreigners in Japan, does it sound steortypical in assumption to say that most people who live in Japan are different all together. Not just from a language standpt.,but from a cultural one as one. Japan is a very respected culture in most aspects, one wouldnt want to plea alot of foreign ingorance among the Japanese. Correct me someone if Iam wrong in my observations...