Job Discussion Forums

[nickpellatt]

I expect I sound like an idiot for posting this......

Anyway, after 4 terms teaching in China, and two summer camp seasons in the UK, I have enrolled on a Trinity TESOL starting in September.

Now they have kindly sent out some pre-course work, with some grammar exercises....and I dont have a clue....to the point where I actually wonder if the questions have been mis-printed etc, as the concept and ideas are just beyond me!

So where the hell does one learn grammar? I have encountered many grammatical terms during my lessons over the last two years, but have never specialised in teaching it....I have taught phrasal verbs, Im confortable with compound nouns and adverbs of frequency etc.

But where does one learn things like "a clause that functions as part of another clause, eg, as subject, object, or adverbial in the main clause of a sentence"

Im really quite concerned about my course. I guess I was expecting to be schooled in grammar as part of the course, but it seems I am having pre-course work with questions to answer, when I havent learnt any of the topics yet?

Where do people learn this grammar from? I recently passed a 9 month Open University course in English language studies, that never covered this type of thing....and I have just passed a City and Guilds English exam that didnt cover such things either.

My son is studying English A levels....with hope of becoming a journalist...and he doesnt understand these questions either?

Can anyone point me in the right direction to actually learn this nonsense? I have purchased Swanns Practical English Usage.....but I feel this was a mistake really....it seems to assume knowledge, rather than impart it.

I dont think I am especially crap at English, or am I? Am I going to regret booking this course as i) I wont be able to complete it, and ii) it isnt actually going to teach my anything about grammar as it is assumed I should know it?

Appreciate any thoughts

[spiral78]

While many look down a bit at Raymond Murphy's grammar books, I still stubbornly find the explanations in them very lucid (though I think the exercises are inadequate for most purposes). Try the advanced version of Murphy if you feel you need clear definitions, is my personal advice.

I rarely use the exercises in any class, but I maintain that Murphy's descriptions of parts of speech are clear, lucid, apt, and easy to understand.

[Glenski]

Native English speakers learn English in a different way from second language learners and foreign language learners. Some things we learn by "osmosis" through daily conversations are actually taught as rules in other cultures.

The order of adjectives, for example.

Murphy is good but not a be-all, end-all. Betty Azar's books (and workbooks) are also helpful. Both tend to be on the instructive side in terms of format. Swan's Practical English Usage is more of a reference tome, and I like it, but it's not a teaching (or self-teaching) book.

Don't expect to know all rules of grammar. You won't. Besides, grammarians often disagree. So do linguists. Never be afraid to tell a student you don't know at the moment, and then promise to look it up ASAP, and follow through with that promise!

[Marcoregano]

[johnslat]

Betty Azar's "Understanding and Using English Grammar" is quite a good book. Though it's meant for classroom use, it does offer very clear explanations of points such as the one you wrote about above:

"a clause that functions as part of another clause, eg, as subject, object, or adverbial in the main clause of a sentence"


A good example of that would be a sentence such as this one:

Why he did it is something we'll never understand.


where you have the noun clause "Why he did it" functioning as the subject of the sentence.

It's much more common to have noun clauses function as objects:

I don't know why he did it.

Hope this helps. Azar certainly taught ME a lot.

Regards,
John

[mandalayroad]

I'll vote for Betty Azar as well. And I think a lot of us went through this when first teaching English... we didn't internalize or remember all the English grammar we learned back in junior high school.

[MO39]

[cmp45]

Another good reference book on grammar that I use is

An A-Z of English Grammar & Usage by Geoffery Leech

Explanationas are expressed simply and clearly. The grammar is presented alphabetically in a dictionary-like format. It is quite accessible for people unfamiliar with grammatical terminology.

[ntropy]

another vote for the Azar series

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[nickpellatt]

Thanks for the replies...Azar sounds like the way ahead.

Im also pleased, and perhaps relieved, to see a few replies suggesting I needn't worry about this, and that having an extensive knowledge of such things doesnt seem to be the norm.

Course starts in Sep, when I have finished my summer school work...I will post feedback somewhere on the forum for it.

I dont feel incredilby positive about doing it to be honest....so will be interesting to post a review of sorts when its over.

[naturegirl321]

Murphy's good. BUt I found that I learned through the books that I had to teach from. They have grammmar explainations in the back, simple as well. ONce you have to teach grammar, you'll be forced to learn it. Now I'm pretty good at it.

[Writer]

I can relate to your concerns. I felt the same way when I first signed up for the CELTA course. The course taught a little bit of grammar, but that wasn't the focus. It did teach how to research and prepare lessons on grammar. While teaching overseas, I admit there were times when I would tell my students, "I know the answer I'm giving is you is right; I need to find out the exact grammar rule - I'll get back to you." I always got back to them, if not after the break, then by the next class. If I couldn't find the answer in a book, I always found my co-workers willing to help me out. The more I taught, the easier it got to figure out the "why" of grammar rules.

[Phil_K]

[MO39]

I was a Spanish major in college, so I learned lots of English grammar before I ever stood in front of a class to teach.