Job Discussion Forums

[raynepony]

Hello :),
I have been browsing around the forum quite a bit, trying to find more information about schools. I am in college right now, planning to graduate in 10' with a bachelors in business. I don't know why I am so curious about traveling to Russia, but it's been a fascination of mine for a while, so I'm looking into maybe doing some exploring upon graduation. I do not have any teaching experience, so an internship with one of the "mcdonalds" schools seem to be the most reasonable alternative. Please realize that I am not in this for the money, so I really don't mind "working for peanuts." This would be an adventure--nothing more.

My biggest question is not whether I can make money through these "mcdonald" schools (I do not expect to), but if they will hold my hand throughout this process and live up to their part of the deal. Are they reliable? I've been reading a lot of vague statements about them, mostly negative, but they really do not reference any particular issue, just that they are "mcdonalds" and therefore inherently bad. So if you wouldn't mind, could you please share what your personal experience has been with these schools, so that I can judge the situation for myself?

I am not a partier, nor a drinker. I like cooking for myself and don't really care to eat out a whole lot. In general, I don't indulge in food--for the most part, I just eat what I need. So, with food and transportation, would the $600/month cover living expenses? Also, I am a vegetarian, so I will not be buying a whole lot of expensive meat. Mostly produce and bread, some dairy, etc. I like soups. There's a recent thread just below this one about living expenses; however, it seems like everyone consistently contradicts one another, and I can't manage to derive a coherent answer. How much would a vegetarian reasonably spend a month on groceries? Also, is Russian cuisine more or less accomodating of vegetarians than American? I'm a little concerned about what I've read regarding the quality of their food--should I be?

What are the flats like that are provided for by the schools? At this point, my expectations are pretty low. What are the people like that live in the other flats by you? (Pictures would be helpful :)). Are they in bad parts of the town?

How are women treated in Russia?

What is the city of Moscow like? Obviously it's a very big city, so I realize there's probably more than one side to it. Generally speaking, however, how does it compare to big American cities? Is it dirty? What is the infrastructure like? Are there big wal*mart-like businesses and malls?

Admittedly, I've been a little disappointed with how pessimestic the Russian forum seems to be--I don't know why that is? If you don't mind, I'd like to remain positive about this, so please refrain from bursting my bubble without legitimate reason. :P Also, I'm looking for straight forward answers, so no beating around the bush. :P

[jpvanderwerf2001]

I'll try with general Russia questions, since I don't live in Moscow (have only been there a couple of times):

My biggest question is not whether I can make money through these "mcdonald" schools (I do not expect to), but if they will hold my hand throughout this process and live up to their part of the deal. Are they reliable?

The big schools (EF, BKC, etc.) should be fairly reliable. The big question is whether or not they can get you the appropriate working visa. If they can/will, then I'd expect them to come through with their other promises.

I've been reading a lot of vague statements about them, mostly negative, but they really do not reference any particular issue, just that they are "mcdonalds" and therefore inherently bad. So if you wouldn't mind, could you please share what your personal experience has been with these schools, so that I can judge the situation for myself?

I actually work at a "McSchool" and enjoy it enough. The main objections to them may be that they have a set curriculum and can stifle a teacher's progress professionally. Also, they tend to pay near the bottom of the scale. In all fairness, I should say that neither of these complaints have proven true in my case, but I am only one person (who could've gotten lucky).

I am not a partier, nor a drinker. I like cooking for myself and don't really care to eat out a whole lot. In general, I don't indulge in food--for the most part, I just eat what I need. So, with food and transportation, would the $600/month cover living expenses?

$600/month in Russia is a very low salary, especially for a foreigner. Inflation is quite high here, and it ain't as cheap as it used to be. I certainly wouldn't consider living in Russia for less than $1000/month (assuming rent is included; if not, double that).

Also, I am a vegetarian, so I will not be buying a whole lot of expensive meat. Mostly produce and bread, some dairy, etc. I like soups. There's a recent thread just below this one about living expenses; however, it seems like everyone consistently contradicts one another, and I can't manage to derive a coherent answer. How much would a vegetarian reasonably spend a month on groceries? Also, is Russian cuisine more or less accomodating of vegetarians than American? I'm a little concerned about what I've read regarding the quality of their food--should I be?

Russia is not the most veg-friendly country. I'm sure you can find products you need in Moscow, but it probably won't be convenient, and certainly won't be cheap. This question would be better handled by another vegetarian; I certainly don't fit that bill.

What are the flats like that are provided for by the schools? At this point, my expectations are pretty low. What are the people like that live in the other flats by you? (Pictures would be helpful ). Are they in bad parts of the town?

Sorry, don't know.

How are women treated in Russia?

I'm not a woman, but I think that foreign women are treated quite well here. At least until they decide to date a Russian man (by the accounts I've read at least). Be aware that feminism, as such, isn't a big hit here, so expect people to think you can't do things (or shouldn't) because you're a woman. I hear this all the time.

What is the city of Moscow like? Obviously it's a very big city, so I realize there's probably more than one side to it. Generally speaking, however, how does it compare to big American cities? Is it dirty? What is the infrastructure like? Are there big wal*mart-like businesses and malls?

Dirty. Poor infrastructure in relation to Western cities its size. More and more department-type stores are making an appearance.

Admittedly, I've been a little disappointed with how pessimestic the Russian forum seems to be--I don't know why that is? If you don't mind, I'd like to remain positive about this, so please refrain from bursting my bubble without legitimate reason. Also, I'm looking for straight forward answers, so no beating around the bush.

Russia is not an easy place to live for most foreigners. Besides the everyday, small inconveniences (such as not cleaning sidewalks after a snowfall), the culture/mentality is quite different and the bureaucracy is out of control. Please think carefully before making the move to a country such as this.I have lived in many parts of the world (India, South America, etc.), and I'd consider Russia the most difficult to adjust to. This is perhaps why there is much negativity on the Russian boards: Many people hate it, leave and complain, while many people hate it, stay and complain All of this is not a scare tactic, I'm simply trying to be of help.

Also, a quick tip: Take Russian lessons before making the move. You'll be very grateful you did.

[spiral78]

My input here is also limited by my limited experience in Moscow (a 4-month stint at LUKOil a couple of years ago). But I can at least second some of jpv's statements.

Moscow is EXPENSIVE. I agree with the idea of around 2,000 monthly if you have to pay for accomodations, and 1,000 if you have something free.

Public transportation is much more efficient and wide-spread than any big city in the States. But the metro system can also be extremely crowded and daily travel is pretty stressful in many cases.

I was in Moscow from March - June, and in March it was filthy (picture small children playing on a metre of old black snow filled with garbage and broken glass), and then spick-and-span (fresh whitewash and flowers everywhere) for May 1. An amazing contrast!

Yes, you can find veggies at the supermarket. In fact, I was favorably impressed with what was available all round for cooking at home. But, no vegetarianism isn't a feature of typical Russian life. Definitely less accomodating than in the States.

I was living in a 'bad' part of town, and certainly saw some criminal activity. However, it's generally targeted and I doubt a foreign female would need to be unduly worried about it. The most important thing is to fit in visually - don't stand out.

Yes, yes, yes, - you need to learn functional Russian.

Overall, it's a place I wouldn't want to have missed, and I'd like to go back - but not to live.

[canucktechie]

[jpvanderwerf2001]

Really? Perhaps Moscow is different from Vladivostok, then. I find it astounding the prices we have to pay for even low-quality goods. Plus, inflation is through the roof and goods at the supermarket, such as milk products and anything imported, are more expensive than like products in the USA. A decent cheese, for example, will cost 400 rubles a kilo here. That's about double the price for a kilo of similar quality cheese in the States. Staples like bread, eggs and grains are more dear here as well.

[raynepony]

Wow, what wonderful responses! They are so helpful.

[canucktechie]

[spiral78]

raynepony, what do you imagine the 'crowds' in Moscow look like? It seems you imagine that dressing down would help you blend in.

Not at all - Russians tend to dress more formally than North Americans in most circumstances - and women are very posh in terms of their appearance.

Also, it's not realistic to think of yourself as 'educating business men.'
Many corporate students are women, to begin with, and at a newbie level your job is really more to provide a native speaker's perspective on the language, to support adult learning.

I think you might really want to visit the place before seriously contemplating a move there...alternatively, you might make an effort to find some Russian adults in your current location, and ask them to talk with you about your plans and what Russia and Moscow are like.

[expatella_girl]

I'm not going to debate anybody here who disputes what I'm about to say, it's my 2 cents and I'm throwing it into the hat......

How you are treated as a [western] woman in Russia depends on 2 things:
1) your age
2) your looks

Women are a commodity in Russia. Bought and sold like furniture and oil and cars. If you're young, stylish, and look good, all's well. If you're older, not gorgeous, and western--that's not good. Nope, not good at all. You can survive and even prosper, but you will have to develop a hide like an armadillo. For women in Moscow the culture of youth and beauty is everything. Be prepared for serious culture shock.

Outside of the teaching profession, in 5 years time I watched a lot of western wives follow their husbands on contract to Russia--only to leave well before the end. They just packed up the kids and went home. Saw it time and time again. Moscow is a very difficult culture for western women if you don't have a 'kick a$$ and take names' attitude. It will eat you alive.

On the bright side, if you are young and reasonably good looking, you should be fine.

In winter, decent quality fresh vegetables are very hard to find. I remember hunting down fresh broccoli for Christmas last year, it took hours and days of pursuit but I did finally find some. If you like turnips and parsnips and potatoes and beetroot you're in business. In summer however, beautiful vegetables are widely available. Most Russian menus use vegetables very sparingly, largely limited to sliced cucumbers and various peppers as a garnish. Cauliflower is often the only vegetable listed on many menus. Restaurant 'salads' rarely contain any greenery outside of the ever-present chopped dill. Standard Russian fare is sausage and potatoes.

In truth, for its gargantuan size and population, I must say I found Moscow to be surprising clean. This is because it has hordes of immigrant laborers who sweep and shovel and mop for a pittance, coming out in the night to tidy up the trash and mess that Moscovites leave behind during the day.

So far as wages.....there is no way that *I* would live in Moscow for $1,000 a month. This is less than what even the Russians earn, and they have a tremendous advantage over foreigners in the marketplace. We made several times that and had to watch our personal finances ever more carefully over the years. Inflation in Moscow right now is outrageous, and there is no way to know what kind of financial disaster looms in the future. The financial future in Moscow right now is very risky. The official rate of annual inflation is 12% and you can be sure that is nowhere near accurate. Every January there are huge price hikes and the ruble is on the slide now as well.....

But if you want to go--go. Just don't sign a multi-year contract. Bite off something that you can chew. Even in the most abject poverty you should be able to survive one year.

[raynepony]

Salary-wise, would I be better off trying to find a job with my business (finance) degree than I would be teaching english? I know Russians tend to be highly-educated, so I'm not sure how much of an edge an American education would give me? I was reading an article in the New York Times about a small Russian business that employed only English-speaking workers--is this a trend? (That business wasn't doing so well, though, with the way the economy is.)

expatella_girl- thank you, thank you! that is very helpful.

Spiral78- Clearly I am rather ignorant of Russian culture, perhaps even na�ve. I have made no attempt to hide that, with the expectation that people would be willing to help me out and shed some light on my interest. Your response could not have been more unsolicited, rude, or uncalled for. This is exactly the kind of attitude I feared this post would be met with, which I find extremely frustrating.

As far as your comment regarding visiting Russia goes, I much prefer to first educate myself on its culture before taking such a big step, which is why I am here. Please pardon me if I was wrong in my assumption that people on this forum would have valuable insight.

[expatella_girl]

There is almost no chance you'd find a job in any career or industry in Russia if you don't speak Russian. Just near zero.

A great many of the expats who went to Russia as managers and executives on fancy expat packages are leaving. Replaced by Russians. There is no business advantage whatsoever in being American, in fact it is a liability. Any Russian company would have to get permission and justify hiring a foreigner over a national, so that the foreigner could get a work permit. Without a work permit and a work visa, staying in Russia for more than 90 days is very difficult.

Teaching English for a McSchool is advantageous in that they have the ability to acquire work permits for incoming foreign teachers.

[spiral78]

raynepony, I'm not coming from any superior perspective - I've got a rep for being endlessly patient with newbies.

Please note my suggestion that you locate some Russians in your area, and try to get some in-depth information from them, rather than opening yourself up to anything you will perceive as overly negative from regular posters on Dave's.

I think you've been overly sensitive here. I am not trying to discourage anyone. However, I have to emphasize that realistic understanding and expectations are really vital to the process.

If I understand correctly, you are at least 18 months away from your contemplated move. That's lots of time to gather information from multiple sources. Find some Russians, and talk to them. Then you'll come across as less naive on the forum, and you'll face less of what you may perceive as negativity.

[rusmeister]

[jpvanderwerf2001]

Spiral78- Clearly I am rather ignorant of Russian culture, perhaps even na�ve. I have made no attempt to hide that, with the expectation that people would be willing to help me out and shed some light on my interest. Your response could not have been more unsolicited, rude, or uncalled for. This is exactly the kind of attitude I feared this post would be met with, which I find extremely frustrating.

I'm sorry, but I do think you're being overly sensitive to spiral's earlier post. I think people are trying to be constructive with this advice, and I see no flaming. Russia is not for the thin-skinned (not trying to sound like a hardened sailor here): People are much more frank (some may say rude), and those who get offended easily might find it hard to adjust.

I agree with the suggestion someone made about visiting first. I think it'll help to open your eyes a bit to the reality of living in Russia.
Best of luck!

[jpvanderwerf2001]

P.S. Feel free to PM with any questions you might have about my "McExperience"