Job Discussion Forums

[Littlebird]

I have been given this question to do as part of my application for a CELTA course.

'Consider what problems learners are likely to have with English. If possible, use your own experience of learning a language or helping people to learn English. About 200 words. You may want to comment on some of the following areas: pronounciation, tenses, idioms, vocabulary, cultural features.'

Can anyone help ?

I have thought of the following:

Pronounciation - Orientals cannot pronounce L and R sounds ? Is that right ? some sounds don't exist in other languages. Examples ? Some learners will have difficulty pronouncing the endings of words and enunciating clearly. English contains a lot of constanants. Silent words?

Tenses: all tenses do not exist in all languages. Different tenses are used to describe the same thing in another language, for e.g. in conversation in a book, 'he is going out, 'Mark said would be Mark says in French even though what Mark said is obviously in the past. When to change the sentence to the past varies from language to language. I n English we make excessive use of the past simple tense - went, said, made, did etc when in French for eg one would use the present tense for something that only happened a moment ago.

Idioms- Over the moon, see the light are difficult of the foreigner to understand. Any other examples ?

Vocabulary - some words will not exist in other languages. Examples ? Word order is often very difficult to grasp in English. Is this true ? Some languages have masculine and feminine nouns. some have neuter too.

Cultural features - some cultures have a very formal dimmension and this is reflected in their language such as nodding in Japan and formal language in French. Accents differences.

I especially can't think of cultural features. Any help greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[Littlebird]

I have also got to correct these sentences, give the corrrect version and write an explanation I would give to the student.

1.I need some advices.

2. I am watching T.V. every night. Wrong tense should be present I watch television. T.V. is slang.

3. Have you seen John recently? Yes, I have seen him last week.

I saw him last week obviously BUT why ? Question in the present perfect answer in the past simple.

4. Morning, what can I get you ? I wonder if you would mind giving me a packet of Benson and Hedges. Too polite. what else can you say? Not specified the size of the packet.

5. I not come to college everyday. I only come on Mondays and Fridays.

How do you explain that you have to say I do not is do an auxillary verb here ?

I know the correct sentences obviously but am at pains to know how to explain to the student why !

Please help

[spiral78]

If we help you, aren't we skewing your chances to succeed on your CELTA course by helping you give the impression that you know more about grammar and language learning than you actually do as yet?

May I respectfully suggest that you check some basic grammar and teaching resources (do your own research) so that you can then back up your 'knowledge,' which is sure to be tested further on an actual course.

[fluffyhamster]

Just a few thoughts in response to what you've written, Littlebird (rather than writing anything original for you, apart from regarding 'advices' and DO):

Sometimes whole books are written in 'the present' rather than 'the past': "He's going out," Mark says. Oh no, I think...

'Some words will not exist in other languages' seems to be the flip side of the 'Eskimos have 50 words for snow' belief (see the Language Log website).

English word order is relatively fixed. The variations in word order serve clear and useful functions.

Not sure what this 'Nodding in Japanese' is - bowing?

'Advices' - 'advice' is not countable (i.e. it cannot be counted/directly preceded by the indefinite article 'a/an' or by 'one/1', 'two/2', 'three/3' etc, and does not have/form a plural (plural noun) either irregular or by means of the plural suffix -s e.g. *advices, *2 advices; note however the partitive structure a piece of advice is acceptable and indeed usefully productive for such nouns). It is therefore marked [U] (as opposed to [C]) in most learner dictionaries. (NB: This is one area of English "vocabulary" that some learners may have problems with ).

TV is not slang but a standard and widely-used economical abbreviation (two syllables as opposed to four in speech - quite a saving!).

'*I've seen him last week' versus e.g. 'I haven't seen him since last week'. (What about, 'I've seen him last week and this week too'? ).

Unless these B&H are coming off the back of a lorry, I suspect the size of the packet will be the standard 20 cigarettes as opposed to a carton of umpteen packets LOL.

Note the regularity of:
I'm not...
I haven't...
I don't have/come/know etc...
> There is a reason 'do' is called the "dummy auxiliary": Often questions and negatives made with DO are treated as exceptions. In fact, English possesses totally consistent patterns and there is one rule of English which is helpful but is not stated explicitly enough if at all in textbooks: If a particular pattern is made using an auxiliary and you want to use that pattern with a sentence which does no contain an auxiliary, you follow the usual pattern and use DO (do, does, did; + not etc) as the dummy auxiliary. The patterns are formed in exactly the same way. ..... Too often, teachers emphasize difficulties and differences and ignore opportunities to systematize, simplify, and unify. (Michael Lewis & Jimme Hill, Practical Techniques for Language Teaching, pp 133-134).

[hexadec]

Only piece of advice I would offer...get a copy of Scrivener's 'Learning Teaching'...and read it.

It helped me no end on my CELTA and still does daily.

[Littlebird]

Thanks to you both

I already have the book. Looks very interesting.

I meant bowing. I could not think of anything for cultural features in relation to difficulties with language except that some nationalities have a very formal way of behaving, e.g. bowing in Japan and also the French have their tu and vous which has no equivalent in the UK. What other cultural problems could learners encounter when learning English ?

[stillnosheep]

fear of making mistakes, of standing out, of embarrassment, etc

[nickpellatt]

Cultural issues can often be related to a number of things such as the register of speech used. This covers formal/informal styles of speech which in some circumstances might be culture specific.

For example, the general politeness with please, thank you etcetc which we expect as the norm may not be the norm in other cultures.

Cultural differences could also cover humour perhaps? The dry sarcasm that is typically British wouldnt translate across cultures although the words themselves might. "She is so blonde?" for example.

Also, habits in everyday greetings and exchanges may not be the norm in some cultures. For example....if you are in China, people would greet you by asking 'have you had lunch?'. This isnt an exchange designed to start a conversation about food, its just an everyday greeting. I guess its similar to a cheery 'Weather looks good today!' type greeting you may exchange with a neighbour in the UK when you pass in the street.



My advice to you, and others may disagree, is not too worry too much about this pre-coursework. Answer honestly, and in your own words. Generally, I think these questions are just an introduction to some elements of the course, and you will not be expected to have an encylopedic perfect knowledge of all these points. The points you have made in your first post look fine to me, and are perfectly acceptable.....they are similar to the kind of answer most students will give pre-course, and are possibly better than some teachers would give now after the course

I have said a number of times, I think making an effort to learn the tenses and their functions, and familiarity with the IPA, will stand you in fantastic stead prior to the course.

[fluffyhamster]

I think Nick is right about not worrying too much about this work (or certain aspects of it, anyway). That is, personally I'm a bit torn between paying at least lip service to cross-cultural pragmatics (or whatever you want to call it), and avoiding it for fear of stereotyping and/or patronizing learners (note the limited response to your repeated query, Littlebird). The fact is, a good language course should leave learners in no doubt as to how people "do things with words" in both native-speaker countries and internationally (and for good or bad, international business for example is conducted along western or quasi-western lines), yet without ramming topic or lifestyle choices down the learners' throats (and being sensitive to local norms, behaving and speaking appropriately etc is all stuff the teacher rather than the student should be learning or already familiar with!). (I'm not sure how essential appreciating British wit is in all that). But not all courses are linguistically up to par, and this can have an impact on how learners who've studied with them (and perhaps only them) will be perceived.

I suppose that ultimately perhaps the most we can do (as native English tachers) is experience and then recall or relate the little misunderstandings we('ve) experience(d) in foreign countries, but these seem inconsequential almost (i.e. were hardly fraught) to/for me (but I might have still made some blunders, or caused some offence unbeknowingly - very subtle things) - that, or become a social anthropologist like Kate Fox or something. The main thing I was aware of when in foreign countries was my relative linguistic inability sometimes (depending on the context or topic of conversation), and the allowances that most people there usually made for that.

Might be of some use or interest:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?p=37239#37239

[kyarochan]

Some thoughts on Japan - might give you some ideas. A lot of this refers to the influence that compulsory education can have on learners' experiences and expectations of learning, rather than 'culture' per se. I've taught and known plenty of exceptions to any Japanese cultural 'rule' anyone can think up!

* Children are taught heavily didactic lessons where the teacher talks and the students are not expected to input. Students expect that the teacher 'knows' what they need and want from the class and do little to analyse their own needs.
* The focus of the education system is heavily factual - students assimilate vast amounts of knowledge and repeat it in relatively restricted forms to succeed. Students thus often focus on 'knowing' English - words and grammar forms - rather than jumping in and 'using' it. Many would prefer to stay silent rather than try but make mistakes. Many told me that they would first learn English, then they would speak it.
* Quite a lot of bullying of those that stand out - "the nail that sticks up will be hammered down". In my schools, fluent English speakers took the same English classes as everyone else.
* Students often shy from expressing an opinion directly. I have seen classes of forty students all profess their love for the Beatles, just like the example sentence. The other favourite is that great hobby, sleeping.
* Politeness in Japanese is heavily codified - different verbs are used depending on the relative 'importance' of the speaker and listener. Teaching English politeness, expressed through tone, hesitation, polite humour etc, and used even where we don't know the other person, therefore requires some thinking.
* Gestures don't always translate - my students found shrugging hilarious. "I" is indicated by pointing to the nose, not the chest.
* There are no articles (a, the) or plurals in Japanese, the syllabary is limited making it hard to pronounce l, r, w, f, v. It's common to omit personal pronouns.

[Littlebird]

Thanks a lot !

I have sent it now, thank goodness.

I will remember your tips for the interview.

SAM

[Carll101]

By the way your example of French is wrong : "Mark said" would be "Mark a dit" in French and "Mark says" would be "Mark dit".

Also wrong about the use of past tense.

Might be true for other languages, but not French.

[Littlebird]

No you misunderstand me. I didn't explain myself very well though.

I meant that in conversation in books instead of saying Jean a dit - Jean said they write Jean dit when they mean Jean said. If you look in any novel you will see this. Even though they are talking about the past they say he said in the present tense which I find very strange and I think they do this in other ways too. We use the imperfect tense for everything that has only just happened when they remain in the present tense. When they move into the imperfect god only knows. It is the same when you say I've just seen him or He's just gone. These sentences would be Je viens le voir not Je l'ai venu voir which in fact is more logical than English. I was trying to point out that this might be difficult for the learner to grasp and that tenses are not interchangeable from language to language.
SAM

[Madame J]

Another feature to bear in mind with pronunciation is word stress. Apparently Japanese doesn't use it, and neither I believe does French. Therefore I can imagine it could be a nightmarish concept for some new learners to have to get their heads around, and so it is something that has to be constantly emphasised with the teaching of each word. On my CELTA, we all got into the habit of drilling each new word/sentence a couple of times and then asking the students where they thought the stress/es fell. Getting students to practice a selection of words or sentences with misplaced stresses can also be useful when it comes to proving just how much meaning can be lost without correct syllable emphasis.

A cultural problem one of my colleagues encountered was the fact that in some learning environments, being asked to stand up is synonymous with being told off. She realised this after feeling that she'd traumatised one of her students by asking her to come to the front and write something on the board. Such cultural barriers are things that can often be overcome as your students get used to you, though.

[Carll101]

You are right about word stress, it is a nightmare to teach ! One good example is in the Thai language, they always stress the last sound, so when they speak in English they often say something like "good morniinnnng", "How are youuuuuu", Thai massaaaagggeeeeeee", which is cute, but wrong.

About your French example, I'm still not sure. Being French myself, I do use past tenses when I speak about something in the past, even really close from the present moment. But maybe some people don't. Overall I think if you compare English with non-European languages, the grammar differences will be way more obvious.