Job Discussion Forums

[housecat]

I'll soon have an MA Teaching and Toefl cert (B.A. English). I have 10 years teaching experience in Taiwan and S. Korea. I'm considering moving to HK to teach sometime in 09 or 10. I've visited a couple times, so I do have at least some idea of the place.

I have one son, who will be 6 when I plan to move.

Are there many family types? I'm a single mom. What challenges might we face? Has anyone else done this? Any experience you share or advice you offer will be handsomely appriciated!

Thanks!

[Marcoregano]

Lamma Island - 25 mins by ferry from Central HK. It's about as cosmopolitan as you will find anywhere on the planet. Loads of teachers live there, from part-timers to careerists. And yes, loads of westerners (and Asians of course) with kids, and quite a few single mums. Check it out at www.lamma.com.hk - a very good community website.

[housecat]

Thanks! I'm checking out that link right now . . . . .

[Jason Goren]

Yes, there are family communities on Lamma, and also DB (Discovery Bay, aka Disco Bay, on Lantau Island), and also in Sai Kung in the Eastern NTs, so that's not a problem. You'll have to hire a maid/domestic helper/amah/slave though as you'll most likely be going to work well before your son has to go to kindergarten, primary school, or whatever. This is quite normal though as, for some reason, most people somehow magically lose any ability and/or desire to do their own shopping, cooking, and cleaning whilst passing through HK Immigration. A present-day slave from the Philippines costs around $3,600 HK a month � chicken feed to people here, but it's okay as 'it's a lot of money where 'they' come from', apparently.

The main challenges you will face will be educating your son and the reactions of locals to you being a single-parent mother (an unheard-of concept here � indeed, it's quite hard to translate the idea into Cantonese as by definition it simply doesn't make sense; a parent is one of a pair). Let's look at the education aspect first.

It will be hard for you to get your son into a local educational establishment as not many places accept non-local children (the local teachers are petrified of being upstaged, outgunned, and corrected by a young native speaker � if you say to a young kid that 'The man wents to shopping' they will correct you without thinking twice about it) and even if you did find a local establishment that was willing to take your son, you may end up wishing you hadn't. The local, i.e., government, 'education' system leaves a lot to be desired, to put it somewhat mildly. Even primary school kids have six or seven hours a day of full frontal formal lecture-style teaching fired at them, in some cases, via a megaphone. Learning by rote seems to be the only educational methodology the vast majority of local teachers are at all aware of. And would you want your child to be shunned by most if not all other kids as they are worried they can't speak the same language? That's not a very nice situation for a young child to be in. It's okay when it is unavoidable, such as when immigrants go to a new country, but would you be happy to impose such a situation on your child?

So, to escape the sheer horrors of the local education system you will have to explore the international school and/or the 'private/independent' school route, which is also a bit tricky, at least financially. Most international schools now have quite long waiting lists, sometimes of two or three years. Also, fees are high. Some international schools charge $15,000 HK a month for tuition fees alone (so once you have factored in uniforms, the school bus, lunches, ECA, and compulsory school trips, you'll be looking at around $20,000 HK a month). Add to this the fact that an increasing number of such schools also have a debenture system (sometimes as high as $500,000 HK!) and you soon see why both ex-pat executives and local education officials typically send their offspring abroad for education (Eton is actually cheaper than most international schools here). ESF is a tad cheaper, but even that is a minimum of $8,000 a month, again just for tuition.

The other problem you will face, and which I touched upon above, is the reaction of locals to your being a single parent. You don�t say if you have QTS or not, though I suspect you haven�t, so it will be nigh on impossible for you to secure employment at an international school. And, if you work on the NET scheme (which is more than possible without QTS) then you'll have to come into contact with local teachers. If and when they find out that you are a single parent then you may at best be treated as something of an oddity, and at worst may be shunned and/or treated with open hostility (HK must be one of the only places in the entire world where people still unashamedly display their prejudices; after many years here I am now quite used to seeing Hong Kong people move away from Indians and Blacks on the MTR, whilst simultaneously holding their nose in utter disgust). As a single parent you may attract similar treatment, especially if you had your child out of wedlock. They simply cannot fathom out the concept as they have no experience of such an arrangement. Hong Kong now has the lowest birth rate in the entire world (I think it is 0.7 per woman) and, for the few that do ever get married and have a kid, breaking up is simply not something they would ever consider, let alone actually go through with; they would rather stay together to save 'face', even if it means ending up being miserable for the rest of their lives). Also, stricter, usually religious-based, schools may not hire you if they discover you are a single parent as they may say you would be a bad influence on the students and/or as 'the parents wouldn't like it', one of the most commonly heard excuses/justifications in HK. Before you say that this is impossible or outrageous, just remember that many female teachers in HK are not allowed to wear trousers to work unless it goes below a certain temperature and the wearing of any jewellery in addition to a wedding ring is forbidden, in writing!

All in all, I would think very carefully about coming to HK as a single parent, and, if you do, I would advise you to keep it to yourself, at least as regards the locals.

[housecat]

Do I QT status? Well, that's what the MAT is about. By the time I'm in Hong Kong, I'll have a real, LIVE, TEACHING LICENSE! Whoo.

Sorry, being a little sarcastic.

Yes, I'm qualified. Yes, I'd be looking into international schools. My son is half Chinese. We don't speak Canto, but do speak a BIT of Mandarin. Of course, we speak English. I realize HK is unique, but prejudice is not.

[Jason Goren]

Actually, I'm not at all sure that an MEd (is it an MEd you are currently completing?) does give you QTS; for that you require either a BEd or a degree in another area and a PGCE (or equivalent). In short, by HK's standards, you need to be able to teach in the government sector of your home state. I'm not sure an MA in any subject allows you to do that.

You might also want to consider the fact that postgraduate degrees do not enter into the equation when calculating where on the pay scale you will be placed.

Also, even if the MA (whatever it is in) does give you QTS, it would only do so if it was obtained from an English-speaking country, and from an institution accredited by the education department of the HK government. I am not sure if they accept part-time, distance qualifications. I don't think they do, so you'll have to check. HK can be a bit strange when it comes to things like this. I personally know of a chap who was unable to apply for the NET scheme as he was not, according to the EDB, a native speaker of English. He comes from Ireland. There is also talk at the moment within EDB circles of classifying Scottish people as non-native speakers of English, too, due to the fact that no local teachers or students can understand a single word they speak. (I also know of a South African whose first language is Afrikaans and who has English as a second language, but who was accepted onto the NET scheme! Go figure!)

I'm afraid to say that you won't be able to land a job at an international school if you don't have QTS (and a fair bit of experience) in your home state. People who pay upwards of $15,000 HK a month for their offspring's tuition fees alone tend to demand that as a minimum.

I take your point on prejudice not being exclusive to HK, but it might be somewhat more profound and fundamental here. They even openly slag off the Mainlanders, who, of course, the overwhelming majority of Hong Kong people are separated from by at the very most two generations! As for Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalese, Indonesians, Filipinos, etc., then forget it! The general consensus seems to be that they are intrinsically inferior and further down the evolutionary scale. You also need to add gays, lesbians, halfcastes, and single parents to this list, as all of these are simply unheard of in HK � not even heterosexual couples will hold hands, kiss, or give any outward indication of affection in public (except for on escalators which seem to be the most romantic places in HK).

Racism, prejudice, and discrimination are taken to a whole new level in HK. The recent 'anti-racism law' proposed by the government, for example, was roundly condemned by most international bodies and watchdogs as being itself inherently racist!

I truly wish I could be more positive, but I am simply telling you it as I see it based on my experience here (close to a decade now). Anyway, good luck!

[housecat]

I realize you're trying to help, but you seem so full of assumptions.

Yes, I can teach ANYWHERE in my stare, government, public, private, anywhere.

MAT is Master of Arts in TEACHING. I'm licensed by the State. My BA is in English (as was posted above) and both degrees were obtained AT UNIVERSITY, full time, and on the gound.

Do you feel better now?

[Jason Goren]

Actually, I don't think I am guilty of assuming anything. I based my comments on what you had written.

What is your 'state'? Is that your country, or a state of the US? If the latter then I can tell you for a fact that it does not count in HK, not for the NET scheme or international schools. I know of many Americans who have a state teaching license who are not classified as having QTS here. Also, Americans are all but unheard of on the NET scheme and, outside of AIS (American International School), are very thin on the ground in other international schools.

Yes, I know your BA is English, and I know you mentioned it above (I read your posts). What I am trying to tell you (quite unsuccessfully it seems) is that this MA in 'Teaching' won't count for dick in Hong Kong unless you have QTS in your home country. That, according to the EDB, requires a BEd or a degree plus a PGCE (or equivalent).

Obviously your degrees were obtained from a university � only universities can confer degrees. But unless the university was in an English-speaking country (as dictated by the EDB) and unless the university in question is recognised by the EDB (not all are) then they simply will not count. As I have said before, unless at least one is a BEd then you will not have QTS, at least not by HK standards.

It has nothing to do with how I feel; I'm just trying to relate some of the hurdles and oddities of HK to you. Feel free to dismiss my notes and advice by all means!

[housecat]

I felt you were being assumptive by advising me to check if a part time distance degree is acceptable.

I am an American and am licensed in and American state. Yes. So hopefully, that will help make things more clear for our understanding.

I realize that advanced degrees don't count for anything.

I guess I'm confused because being licensed IS qualified teacher status here. I realize that HK was a British territory for 100 years and that the British way of doing things and the American way of doing things are perhaps different. But are youtrying to tell me that it's not possible for Americans to teach in HK outside of the HK American School?

[Jason Goren]

No, I most certainly wouldn't go as far as that. But, what I would say is that � for whatever reason(s) � American teachers are certainly few and far between in HK (just note how no NET interviews are held in the US). I've met plenty of Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, and Brits, but not very many Americans at all. Many principals, teachers, and parents are worried about pronunciation and spelling, and so tend to steer clear of American teachers (my theory, not official policy). What to you may well be normal English may, if passed on to the students, result in their being marked down in public exams. They still operate a British English system here, and a highly conservative one at that.

HK is not the US and having a US state teaching license unfortunately does not necessarily give you QTS here. You say your teaching license gives you the right to teach in your state, but does it allow you to teach in your home country? If not, then the EDB won't accept it.

[housecat]

[quote="Jason Goren"] You say your teaching license gives you the right to teach in your state, but does it allow you to teach in your home [i]country[/i]?[/quote]

Yes, it does. The United States of America. I'm from Arkansas, in the USA. This time, I'm not being sarcastic, trying to be clear.

[Honky Nick]

I think Jason wants to know if you can teach in any state in your home country. Could you teach in California? Washington? Or just Arkansas? That might make all the difference. I'm not sure of all the details myself, but I get the feeling it won't be recognised as a teaching qualification, as it is not a PGCE or PGDE. Could be wrong, though.

With your qualifications, you are eligible to apply for the NET scheme (whether the MA is recognised as a teaching qual or not). Jason's right that there are not many people from the US on the NET Scheme, but I have met two, so it's possible. Just be prepared to conform to British spelling!

[Honky Nick]

Re: places to live.

Lots of good info from Jason Goren. Lamma and Disco Bay are two good options. I would also offer up Coastal Skyline or the Caribbean Coast (large, resort-style apartment complexes) in Tung Chung as good options for a single parent (if you don't work too far away). Apartments there are relatively cheap, there are swimming pools, tennis courts, squash courts, a bowling alley and a gymnasium. It's also extremely safe and there are a couple of international schools nearby.

Of course, there are squillions of resort-style communities like this in Hong Kong, but I'm only mentioning this one because I really like Lantau Island. It's not too busy and there are hiking trails and beaches galore.

[housecat]

In the States, each state sets it's own licensing standards. With an AR license, I can teach in any state that participates in recriprocal recognition of licensure. TX does not do this, and Ca may not. There may be others. But I can certantly teach in MOST states.

So, If my license is not useful, can I still apply to the NET scheme with a B.A. and 10+ years experience teaching in Asia? Or is there some other option?

Oh, and I haven't even conformed to standard American English spelling yet, so flexible spelling practices are NO PROBLEM!

[Honky Nick]

Hi housecat,

Yes, you can apply to the NET scheme with just a BA and TOEFL certificate. It just means you can't progress past a certain point on the payscale. Take a look at the Education Bureau's NET scheme website for more info: http://www.edb.gov.hk/index.aspx?nodeID=262&langno=1

Nick