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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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 Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: High School English standards |
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Teaching ESL here in Australia after several years in China, I must say I'm disappointed at the low level of English of the HK students who come here to study. Despite their air of superiority, even arrogance, in their interactions with PRC students, their English is certainly no better. Given 150 or so years of British rule, and a high level of English media in HK, as well as it being an attractive place for expat FTs, why is this the case?
Another question. Do HK high schoolers study Mandarin as a language, or are their lessons conducted in it, as on the mainland? |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| You are probably not getting very good students. Those parents who send their kids overseas for their high school years do it in order for them to learn English, presumably the same as with your PRC kids. They wouldn't do that if the chance of learning the language effectively here (in their existing school environment) was better. Most of these cases involve kids from CMI schools or weaker EMI schools, and very doubtfully any from a band 1 school. Hope that explains a bit of what you may be facing. |
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Marcoregano
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 872
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: High School English standards |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
| Teaching ESL here in Australia after several years in China, I must say I'm disappointed at the low level of English of the HK students who come here to study. Despite their air of superiority, even arrogance, in their interactions with PRC students, their English is certainly no better. Given 150 or so years of British rule, and a high level of English media in HK, as well as it being an attractive place for expat FTs, why is this the case? |
Not surprisingly, the vast majority of Hongkongers use Cantonese as their main language, and this is the underlying reason why their English never was, and probably never will be, that great. Even at HK's universities, where English is the medium of instruction, most students speak in Cantonese, or use code-mixing, outside of class. At home it's all Cantonese. And despite the relatively large number of expats here, interraction across cultures is fairly limited. To find a high level of English as a second language you generally need to go to a country which has mixed native languages, such as Singapore or India, where English is often used as a language of convenience. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I've been to HK often enough to know that taxi drivers and sometimes shop assistants speak basic transactional English, but had presumed, given the attractive incentives for native English speaking teachers, that competence may have gone a bit deeper.
Still, given the number of mainland Chinese they mix with here in Australia, at least they'll go home with better Putonghua, if not English.
Interestingly, the few Singaporeans and Malaysians [of Chinese background] I teach and work with speak near-native level English. They dominate the distinctions in ESL exams. |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
| Do HK high schoolers study Mandarin as a language, or are their lessons conducted in it, as on the mainland? |
As I understand it, Mandarin (or, as they call it here for some odd reason, 'Putonghua') is a compulsory subject for all HK students following the local curriculum. There are one or two schools where Mandarin is the medium of instruction, but the vast majority are either CMI (Cantonese) or EMI. Most if not all government schools also have regular Putonghau days, Putonghua language activities, and assemblies done once a week in the language, or things like that.
| eslstudies wrote: |
| I must say I'm disappointed at the low level of English of the HK students who come here to study. |
I'm afraid to say that this may say as much about the destination and/or the programme as it does about the students. You may well be a good teacher, and your institution may be respectable, but Kowlooner is quite right: from the perspective of the HK education system, the low level of your HK students may simply reflect the fact that they are the weaker students (moneyed perhaps, but weaker educationally), and that is why they are there in the first place. I do take your general point though � English standards are arguably low in much of the HK student population, but by no means in all. At university level here my students have ranged from 'struggling in the language' right through to being 'all but indistinguishable from an ABC or CBC', or whatever. Interestingly, having taught many mainland students at university here, I can say that in my experience at least, the average mainlander is easily as competent in English as, say, my top 20% of local students. They can often be vastly more vocal and otherwise participatory in lectures, lessons, and tutorials, and are typically more confident in expressing themselves. Many also seem to have a genuine fondness for English in its own right. They will often come and request extra reading, too, much to the bemusement of local students. But I think these traits simply reflect the fact that the mainland students who are able to study at a university in HK tend to come from a certain social sector. To their credit though, it seems that the moneyed classes in China have been investing quite a lot in the English language abilities � and the overall education � of their child/Little Emperor, as I have actually asked a few mainland students before now whether they had perhaps spent a year or two abroad in an English speaking country, perhaps as their father worked in an embassy, or something. More often than not though it is simply the case that they have been sent to private training centres all their life and/or have had private tutors, often native speakers.
One thing I will say without hesitation is that the mainlanders are vastly better students, especially when it comes to group projects and presentations, but also more importantly in terms of time management, diligence, effort, etc., and they also seem to suffer from fewer distractions. Many are actually often interested in their major, something which often strikes many local students as nothing short of preposterous, and local students are often baffled why some mainland students continue to read up on a topic after the exam.
| eslstudies wrote: |
| Despite their air of superiority, even arrogance, in their interactions with PRC students, their English is certainly no better. |
The attitude of your average Hong Kong person towards mainlanders is one of the strangest aspects of the HK psyche, and it is actually a bit schizoid. First, the overwhelming majority of present-day Hong Kong people are at most third or fourth generation refugees; there are very few truly 'indigenous' Hong Kongers. You would never know this from talking to locals though, with many all but claiming to descend from the handful of farmers and boat people the British found when first landing here (they seem to forget though that even if true, they would still ultimately stem from China as 'Hong Kong' back then was part of China). And it is certainly true that many Hong Kongers regard mainlanders as country bumpkins, but unfortunately the outward public behaviour of the mainland tourists in HK makes them stand out like sore thumbs, especially in comparison to those from Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. Annual vigils are held to commemorate those who perished in the Tiananmen Square massacre, and most if not all are highly suspicious any 'news' emanating from Beijing, especially if it revolves around health scares in Guangdong, or their putative non-existence.
On the other hand, many middle class HK people will think nothing of buying a holiday home in China, and/or setting up a business there (the right to have a HK and 'Z' Shenzhen dual number plated car � a very common sight in HK � costs a cool $1,000,000 HK), and many dream of retiring there. They'll also frequently sponsor a child from out in the sticks of Yunnan somewhere, and will give generously to appeals such as those witnessed immediately after the Sichuan earthquake disaster. Some the famed Asian Godfathers such as Li Ka Shing and Stanley Ho personally gave more to the cause than some states, apparently, but those who are by no means rich also gave generously. Such disasters, along with events such as the Olympic Games, space flights (promoted as groundbreaking, despite the fact it was first achieved some half a century ago in the West), and China's economic growth in general, have all recently served to foster and promote patriotism and overall pro-Chinese sentiment. Interestingly though very few Hong Kong people yet seem willing to trade in their HK SAR, BOS, British, Canadian, Australian, etc. passport for PRC citizenship.
| eslstudies wrote: |
| Given 150 or so years of British rule, and a high level of English media in HK, as well as it being an attractive place for expat FTs, why is this the case? |
First, I think you have to put it in perspective. Just ask a policeman on the street for directions or ask for assistance from a customer services agent in an MTR station and you will see that English levels can often be very high, and remember also that even most menial jobs require a smattering of English. The British colonial period and the English media are pretty much irrelevant as the unmotivated student can always switch over to the Cantonese channel and can avoid exposure to English in everyday life in very much the same way the vast majority of ex-pats in HK circumvent any need for Cantonese (I have met people who have been here for 40-odd years and who cannot count to ten in the language). I doubt if your Hong Kong students attended EMI schools in HK, but even those that do attend such schools often possess an uncanny ability to make themselves immune from any benefits to be had from immersion in the language. The Chinese have in general a remarkable ability to make themselves totally oblivious to their surroundings, and unfortunately this ability can also be (mis)applied in the classroom setting. |
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