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ms_casillas
Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: L to Z visa in the US, within a month of each other?? |
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Geez !!
I got myself in twouble  I listened to this school, said go get
your L visa. You can arrive in China, work six mos, no prob. Well
switch you to a Z visa when you arrive.
Long story short, got the L visa then (i know duh !! ) then came to this
forum and realized oh no !! thats not a smart thing to do.
This was a month ago. Now I want to get a Z visa legit from the US
before I leave. Will it look weird to the consulate to say oh, i wanted
to tour, yea I have an L visa, but I changed my mind. Now I need
a Z. Or do I ask them to replace the L with a Z?
The Consulate wont answer thier phone. 
Thanks!! |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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The consulate will not just change an 'L' to a 'Z' visa just like that.
For your 'Z' visa application, you must have the necessary supporting documentation such as invitation letter etc. (all should be detailed on your consulate webpage).
Basically, to get a 'Z' visa, you need to have been offered a job with a legitimate employer who has is authorised to hire foreigners, BEFORE you make your application.
If you can supply the necessary documents, then changing to a 'Z' visa shouldn't be a problem. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Advice, do not take an unused visa into the Chinese Consul. and ask to change to a Z, even if u have the paperwork.....if u want to work for this company but are not sure ...and a z will give you no more assurance that you will not run into a disappointment...many companies still convert or pay for the trip to HK to convert....but if you want to work for this company and are not sure..contact them with your worries and ask to speak with current employees...even then ..Nothing is for sure... |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Your employer needs to be licensed by SAFEA to issue the work permit/Invitation Letter.
You must submit this, along with your passport and visa application in person, or by agent, to a Chinese Embassy/consulate in the country specified on the work permit. Usually this will be your home country.
You will then be issued a Z visa, good for thirty days after your entry into China.
During those 30 Days, your employer will process this into a Foreign Residence Permit (FRP) which serves as a multi-entry travel visa. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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I think your case is at this stage beyond repair; not only can't you have your visa cancelled and replaced by a work visa, you must now accept that you have been lied to.
That employer simply cannot extend a regular invitation to you because he or she is not legit.
For the employer to hire you legally, they will have to get a work permit for you as well as an FEC - both of which before you actually arrive.
Based on these, they can invite you on a work visa.
It is obvious to me that they do not have those suporting documents. For why else would they have given you that abstruse advice of applying for a tourist visa and work in China for up to six months?
You had better apply for a legit position with a legit employer. The majority of jobs advertised in the Internet are not kosher! Do your Due Diligence, which takes some time but also saves you a lot of hassles later! |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Many schools still request employees come over on an L, and they are fully capable of changing the status....that being said....in China, careful career moves are the most valuble assets a FT can have....
6 months is a long time for this ....and perhaps you havent gotten all the info you should have...like i said check with the school and tell them of your worries and see what they have to offer..haggle, this org may be able to provide u with the paperwork needed but will not unless u strongly request it....what ever, u should not go back adn ask for a change .. it will send red flags |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Likewise, many schools have no ability to issue a legal work visa and tell you to come over anyway with promises to convert later.
Promises that never materialize.
Only you can decide what level of risk is acceptable. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| It seems that more and more schools are not issue]ing Zs before the applicant come to China and instead of reverting to the way it was dne in the past with the conversionn, but to be sure .. and to not miss a possible chance at a good job youwould like or enjoy, try and contact other future co workers as they would actually have the answer as opposed to the advice offeed here....there are still quite a few people in China working on Ls and Fs and not tied to their employer and if your smart, you can protect youself against fraud, but scheduling the paymments so that your never exposed too long with out payment and you dnt let the boss get int he rears...it is always bette to abide by the rules but if you find a job you like that is not koshier as opposed to the guys who cross their Ts and dot their I's, in a work enviroment that would seem less then the dream lyou desire, why rish your china experience on an employer who uses the law to control the FT and they are left powerless due to the fact that their visa or RP is tied the employer...just cause they can get legal doesnt mean they will treat you fair ...just met a guy last night who has worked here for three years..most on an L...his company has changed the name three times...and so I ask him why he stayed with them.. and he stated .. they pay on time and they pay more .. and are not concerned about anything I do .. he has now been through the Games and the purges to come out on this side of 2009 with a job that would not be considered legal by many people who post on these boards.. but in all honesty...it seems he is quite happy with the things as they are...again .. I would always recomend that all come with proper attitude before theproper paperwork.. I mayself chose to come on an L when I had paperwork for the z as I didnt want to be tied to this employer if I didnt want to be..but afte coming here and finding out all was ok...I used the paperwork I received in the US and my US Med evalu. to transfer from an L to a Z.... |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| It seems that more and more schools are not issue]ing Zs before the applicant come to China and instead of reverting to the way it was dne in the past with the conversionn, but to be sure .. and to not miss a possible chance at a good job youwould like or enjoy, try and contact other future co workers as they would actually have the answer as opposed to the advice offeed here....there are still quite a few people in China working on Ls and Fs and not tied to their employer and if your smart, you can protect youself against fraud, but scheduling the paymments so that your never exposed too long with out payment and you dnt let the boss get int he rears...it is always bette to abide by the rules but if you find a job you like that is not koshier as opposed to the guys who cross their Ts and dot their I's, in a work enviroment that would seem less then the dream lyou desire, why rish your china experience on an employer who uses the law to control the FT and they are left powerless due to the fact that their visa or RP is tied the employer...just cause they can get legal doesnt mean they will treat you fair ...just met a guy last night who has worked here for three years..most on an L...his company has changed the name three times...and so I ask him why he stayed with them.. and he stated .. they pay on time and they pay more .. and are not concerned about anything I do .. he has now been through the Games and the purges to come out on this side of 2009 with a job that would not be considered legal by many people who post on these boards.. but in all honesty...it seems he is quite happy with the things as they are...again .. I would always recomend that all come with proper attitude before the proper paperwork.. I myself chose to come on an L when I had paperwork for the z as I didnt want to be tied to this employer if I didnt want to be..but after coming here and finding out all was ok...I used the paperwork I received in the US and my US Med evalu. to transfer from an L to a Z.... |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems that more and more schools are not issue]ing Zs before the applicant come to China and instead of reverting to the way it was dne in the past with the conversionn |
Are you referring to the audition gambit?
Isn't that where schools, perfectly capable of issuing a legal work permit, decline to do so and instead entice teachers to come over for a job (an audition actually)?
Then, after two or more "candidates" show up, they do demo classes and the best wins the job.
The rest get apologies due to a "misunderstanding" that mysteriously makes issuing the promised job now "impossible", a hearty thanks, and wishes that they enjoy their thirty day visit to China.
Some might wonder why they are being denied the protected legal status of legal employment promised and are instead urged to take an alternate route. Especially when the employer claims to have available the ability to grant the protected legal status.
After an audition, comes the sudden discovery that authorities have "changed the regulations" .
Here's a post from Jan 9th this year on these forums. Judge yourself how this turned out:
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flicknut wrote:
I came to Beijing on a tourist visa on December 26th. My school promised me that they could change my L visa to a Z visa through an agency.
Today my school told me that the PSB just changed the Z visa regulations for Beijing. My school says that I must go back to my home country during the spring festival holiday, get my visa, and then return to China.
Is it really necessary for me to fly back to the United States just to get a Z visa? I might as well just stay there. |
I'd like to tell you that those on these forums who advise coming over without proper documents leaped publicly to his rescue with offers of plane fare, housing and legal job offers. But, sadly and curiously, they were unavailable.
Perhaps they were busy on other threads telling others not to miss out on opportunity.
Everybody has to choose their own appropriate level of risk. Just be sure to do due diligence and have resources to go back home, and do the whole search process over again if you come over without a Z visa.
Remember too, shady recruiters and unlicensed schools have to feed the machine. To do that, they have to make their case seem plausible on public forums where gullible fish are waiting to bite.
Good luck, and make your own informed decision. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Your scare tatics are too over the top.....the post you noted, old news but I am sure u scurred about to find a post that would support your adgenda ...what is now is what applicants have to deal with and if they want a z and feel confortable with a Z then by all means wait til you find a school that wishes it to be that way...but be prepared to miss opportunities ...... Like I said...I would choose the L visa as I did as it lends it self to more contol of you situation.....it is really no problem to make the HK trip if necessary (oftentimes it isnot) and your indication that those who give advice do not provide assistance ..well what kind of assistance have you provided to those who did everything right only to find out that the school has screwed them over ...yur idea of safe harbor with a z is a false security and perhaps you should provide those who follow that advice and become mucked up in the crap we call biznes as usual in the PRC...as I have said many times before...if you know the school and are sure you want to work there then by all means take the z and proceed but if unsure, leave your self a way out...
I can tell you one thing for sure, if I went to a town or city and found it too cold or not interesting ...there is no way I would stay simply cause I have a z visa already attached to my passport...pople have to be strong and go after the best possible situation... |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Isn't it you you harps relentlessly on how poor business practices here are as the rationale for working illegally? Isn't that the real scare tactic?
How is posting an FTs account, "over the top"! You say its "old news". Well, I'm sure you can dismiss every account contrary to your opinion as old news. But that doesn't change the underlying facts does it?
You are confusing two separate issues: 1. Arriving illegally vs. legally in China 2. Treatment of FTs by schools.
I can guarantee that if you arrive on a Z visa, you will be here legally. That has nothing to do with school treatment of FTs. Although, a school that couldn't or wouldn't provide a legal visa is, in my experience, more likely to be a problem in other regards too.
If you find an employment situation not to your taste, simply find another job. You don't have to sneak off like a thief you know.
Contracts are negotiable. Simply insist that there be a 30 - 60 day no penalty escape clause in the addendum. If a school won't agree, find one that will.
Don't you paint all employers as scary evil overlords whom you have to connive, mislead, and cheat first in order to protect yourself? That seems the real scare tactic.
Why not try the adult approach of due diligence, and negotiations?
Again, each FT has to choose the level of risk that they find comfortable. Can you explain how showing FTs a post that is contrary to your advocated position is "over the top"? |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Why would anyone even consider coming to China to work or teach for an organisation that is either unable or unwilling to provide the correct documentation to secure a 'Z' visa?
I assume all the people who advocate coming to China to work on an 'L' or 'F' visa have no problems supporting illegal immigration and working in their own countries. Or are they the ones that cry out the loudest against it?
Double standards? |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:42 am Post subject: |
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below
Last edited by evaforsure on Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Isn't it you you harps relentlessly on how poor business practices here are as the rationale for working illegally? Isn't that the real scare tactic? |
No I have only said that is the reality....and I havent called them poor business practices .. just chinese business practices and if you can master them then you will have a good experience in china.. but to do so is not to take the blanket advice of posters but rather decide for yourself what investment you are willing to make and act accordingly as to your goals...the fact is that many schools still ask the applicant to come to china on a L....and then convert it to z then to RP...and to dismiss all those companies as bad choices limits the FT to a smaller pool of employment....the scare tatics I refer to is that any school not using a z procedure will yeild less than a satisfying experience...that is simply just not so.. and I have continuely repeated that if your only confortable with a school that offers all paperwork up front, then by all means play it safe, but if you want the best possible choices then you can not limited those choices based on the scare tatics of a poster on DAVES...who knows what modivatin people have here.. so instead of offering advice of the "one right way" I instead only offer my experience which is opposite to that often given here..afte all I came on a L and converted only after I was sure I wanted to stay withthe org that has offered the job...
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| Don't you paint all employers as scary evil overlords whom you have to connive, mislead, and cheat first in order to protect yourself? That seems the real scare tactic. |
As with a few other posters you seem to take a great deal of time addressing my post as opposed to addressing the question posed at the time of posting by the OP....if it is wrong to give my opinion of the working relationhip and the tatics of the chinese business culture, then paint me guilty....but I see nothing wrong with letting people know the experience and impressions that I have had while in china..the question is why would you object so much to me just simply expressing an opinon.. and relating my personal experiences...
I have only related my experience of coming over on a l and coverting it to a z then to an RP which left me in the catbird seat....I had a choice..if you over here on a Z .. and you have told of the invitation and the part of the invitation that is left with the local authorities preventing a new arrival (on the z) from changing jobs .. you likely would have to leave the country anyway and possible would have problems gain access to another Z...the way I did it... I simply could have trashed my invitation letter then obtained a new one from the employer that I really wanted o work for instead of bing attached by the invitation letter to an employer who used the process to insure I had to work just for the issuer of the invitation letter....like I said.. if your sure..then come on the z .. if in doubt.. come on a L anyway...check it out and then decide....the z has never andwill never indicated that you will be treated fairly..
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| Contracts are negotiable. Simply insist that there be a 30 - 60 day no penalty escape clause in the addendum. If a school won't agree, find one that will. |
By your own post you advocate the taking of the passports (of FTs who want to get out of a contract) to cancel the RP and the attachment of the L....so why not just come on an L as by your design the FT is placed on that anyway...and if they came on a L then they wouldnt have the cancelled RP in the pasport which is not always consdered in favor by many future employers...this is simply bad advice ...... like I have said over and over....dont leave the cards all in the hands of the schools....business practices are what I have stated them to be....and the future FT has to take care....no one is advocatin crossing a river to work here...
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| I assume all the people who advocate coming to China to work on an 'L' or 'F' visa have no problems supporting illegal immigration and working in their own countries. Or are they the ones that cry out the loudest against it? |
It seems that you are the only one who is crying out ...the fact is that the goverment of the US as well as many other do provide support services so I would rekon that it is our own goverments that are supporting that form of imigration much the same and the unofficial support of the chinese when they allow this kind of work enviroment to foster the employment of FTs... |
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