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| Will the Hardliners prevail? |
| No - it's a last-ditch effort |
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30% |
[ 3 ] |
| Yes - the Kingdom is fundamentally fundamentalist |
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20% |
[ 2 ] |
| Maybe, for a while longer, anyway |
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50% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: Hardliners |
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Hardline Saudi clerics urge TV ban on women, music:
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia � A group of Saudi clerics urged the kingdom's new information minister on Sunday to ban women from appearing on TV or in newspapers and magazines, making clear that the country's hardline religious establishment is skeptical of a new push toward moderation.
In a statement, the 35 hardline clergymen also called on Abdel Aziz Khoja, who was appointed by King Abdullah on Feb. 14, to prohibit the playing of music and music shows on television.
"We have great hope that this media reform will be accomplished by you," said the statement. "We have noticed how well-rooted perversity is in the Ministry of Information and Culture, in television, radio, press, culture clubs and the book fair."
Although it raises the pressure on the new minister, the recommendation is likely to have little effect. Khoja's appointment was part of a government shake-up by Abdullah that removed a number of hardline figures and is believed to be part of an effort to weaken the influence of conservatives in this devout desert kingdom.
"No Saudi women should appear on TV, no matter what the reason," the statement said. "No images of women should appear in Saudi newspapers and magazines."
Saudi Arabia was founded on an alliance with the conservative Wahhabi strain of Islam that sees the mixing of sexes as anathema and believes the playing of music violates religious values.
The former information minister, Iyad Madani, earned the ire of hardliners several years ago by allowing music in government-run TV and female journalists to interview men, despite the country's strict gender-segregation rules.
Women also appear on Saudi television with their faces showing, though most in public totally cover themselves.
Newspapers publish pictures of Saudi women, but almost always with their heads covered, while pictures of Western entertainers are shown but bare arms and cleavage are painted over.
The clerics include several professors from the ultra-conservative Imam University, Islamic research scholars, a judge in a court in the resort of Taif and some government employees.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, in town for meetings with Saudi officials, told a news conference that during lunch he sat between a female Saudi surgeon and a female journalist. He said while one woman is allowed to perform surgery and another is allowed to teach, neither is permitted to drive.
"I find that bizarre," he said. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| "I find that bizarre," he said. |
Personally, I find Bernard Kouchner rather bizarre, but maybe that's just me.
But back to John's question. It's almost impossible to say how Saudi society will develop in the long-term. However, in the short- to medium-term, I predict that things will go on pretty much as they have been doing for the past several years. That is to say, there will be constant tension between conservatives and reformers, with the latter making gradual progress - a case of 'two steps forward, one step back'. I do think that the almost total isolation which allowed Saudi Arabia (or at least the Najd region, which is the heartland of the 'hardliners') to maintain such a deeply conservative society for so long, has come to an end and will probably be impossible to recreate. Bearing in mind my caveat about long-term social trends being impossible to predict, I do believe that - social upheavals such as war or economic duress aside - Saudi society is on a long process of gradual 'liberalisation'. Of course it won't be enough to satisfy those who somehow expect Riyadh to turn into Amsterdam or London overnight, but that's beside the point. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Hardliners |
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| Quote: |
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, in town for meetings with Saudi officials, told a news conference that during lunch he sat between a female Saudi surgeon and a female journalist. He said while one woman is allowed to perform surgery and another is allowed to teach, neither is permitted to drive.
"I find that bizarre," he said. |
Well, bizarreness and idioticalness are common �political� disorders with French politicians, including Monsieur Kouchner!
I find it very bizarro and idiotic that in France, Muslim girls are not allowed to attend schools wearing their Hijab!! |
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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Bernard Kouchner may like to remind the Magic Kingdom that it was his country what spared the blushes (although not all of them) of the said Kingdom over a certain infandous incident in 1979 and should the aforementioned beneficiaries not show the requisite grovelling in regard to the French Foreign Minister then it should be informed that from here-on the Arabian Nights will be referred to as the Egalit� Nights.
Merci |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| BobbyBan wrote: |
Bernard Kouchner may like to remind the Magic Kingdom that it was his country what spared the blushes (although not all of them) of the said Kingdom over a certain infandous incident in 1979 and should the aforementioned beneficiaries not show the requisite grovelling in regard to the French Foreign Minister then it should be informed that from here-on the Arabian Nights will be referred to as the Egalit� Nights.
Merci |
Well, 'Libert�, Egalit�, et Fraternit�' in France is not fully developed, and will not be implemented until the day of judgement! |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 007,
The Day of Judgement - the same date that the Kingdom of Humanity will fully deserve that appellation.
Regards,
John |
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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 007 wrote: |
| BobbyBan wrote: |
Bernard Kouchner may like to remind the Magic Kingdom that it was his country what spared the blushes (although not all of them) of the said Kingdom over a certain infandous incident in 1979 and should the aforementioned beneficiaries not show the requisite grovelling in regard to the French Foreign Minister then it should be informed that from here-on the Arabian Nights will be referred to as the Egalit� Nights.
Merci |
Well, 'Libert�, Egalit�, et Fraternit�' in France is not fully developed, and will not be implemented until the day of judgement! |
Freedom is also something that isn't necessarily "fully developed" anywhere in the world, but if the US can call French Fries Freedom Fries because of less freedom in France compared to the US (your example of girls not being able to wear the hijab being a case in point) then I submit the French can call the Arabian Nights the Egalite Nights because whatever freedoms the French women are stripped of the men are similarly stripped of (have you ever seen a man in a French school wearing hijab?)
Vive la France! |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| BobbyBan wrote: |
| but if the US can call French Fries Freedom Fries because of less freedom in France compared to the US |
That little temporary joke of a change in one dining room in the US had nothing to do with "less freedom in France." It was because the French very sensibly were against our Iraqi invasion debacle.
VS |
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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| BobbyBan wrote: |
| but if the US can call French Fries Freedom Fries because of less freedom in France compared to the US |
That little temporary joke of a change in one dining room in the US had nothing to do with "less freedom in France." It was because the French very sensibly were against our Iraqi invasion debacle.
VS |
Yes, I know. The whole "Egalite Nights" thing also shouldn't be taken entirely seriously either, by the way.
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I think Uncle Sam should dismantle the statute of liberty, and return it to the people of FRANCE to be destroyed there for over, because it has brought only shame and no Libert�, Egalit�, or Fraternit�' to the people of America!
Abat la France. |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Some things will never reform: 007 and Cleo ready to wage Jihad over a pizza topping as normal. 
Strange to see a cat in human attire. Don't know if that will go down very well on Judgment Day.  |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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He said while one woman is allowed to perform surgery and another is allowed to teach, neither is permitted to drive.
"I find that bizarre, |
Well for the surgeon the idea is presumably that the patient is hardly likely to be in a state to harrass her, though I wouldn't put it past the typical Saudi male in the middle of having open heart surgery performed on him to reach for his mobile phone and start bombarding the female cardiologist with obscene messages by bluetooth. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| shadowfax wrote: |
| Strange to see a cat in human attire. Don't know if that will go down very well on Judgment Day. |
Well, it will depend on the soul of the cat! |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Try to google for the Saudi "National Society of Human Rights" 2008 report. It is considered a huge leap in terms of the issues addressed and the language. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Well, NSHR seems to have limitations imposed upon it by the royal society of Uncle Bandar, and they have to turn a blind eye on several issues that are considered beyond the double red lines in the Magic Kingdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Society_for_Human_Rights
The only achievment of NSHR up to now, is the strong criticism of the Society of the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice! |
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