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Walter TB
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4
Location: US and China
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 Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: Seeking advice, finding a job in September |
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Hi all,
I'm interested in going to Japan to teach English in September (BA, no teaching experience, native English speaker). However, I'm also interested in learning Japanese, ideally in an intensive setting. Because of my language goal, I don't want to be bound to a contract that won't allow me much time to learn Japanese.
After reading the FAQs, would perhaps a Cultural Visa be the best solution? This way, I could study full time and work part time (up to 20 hours per week). I wish I could just enroll for classes at a University as a non-degree student, but they don't seem to allow that 
Anyways, here are my questions (I have lots  )
Will I be able to find work in September (in this recession, no less)?
When is the best time to start looking?
Do I need to be in my home country (I will be abroad until the end of August)?
Will I be able to take classes (not just 1 or 2 hours per week, but 10ish) if I do find a job?
Do people doing JET have time to learn Japanese?
How could I get sponsored to learn Japanese under a Cultural Visa / is this even a viable option for someone who has already graduated?
Any general advice based on my situation as described above? |
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Khyron
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Tokyo Metro City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice, finding a job in September |
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| Walter TB wrote: |
| Any general advice based on my situation as described above?[/list] |
Yes. Please read the stickies. Your questions are all answered there. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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The cultural activities visa is described as follows:
Academic or artistic activities that provide no income, activities for the purpose of pursuing specific studies on Japanese culture or arts, or activities for the purpose of learning and acquiring skills in Japanese culture or arts under the guidance of experts (for example, ikebana, tea ceremony, judo, etc.).
Doesn't say anything about studying the language. I suppose if you studied calligraphy, that would be different, but it's not like learning the language.
I'd say if you want to study Japanese, get one of the student visas, whichever applies. (Government is talking about combining them in the near future anyway, so you won't have to choose.)
To get sponsored for a CA visa, find a master ("expert" from the above quote) willing to sponsor you in an area you want to study. Then apply for the COE as you would for a work visa, but tick the right boxes. See form J and the first pages here.
http://www.moj.go.jp/ONLINE/IMMIGRATION/16-1-1.pdf
And, yes, if you get a work visa, you can take classes as long as you have the time. |
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Walter TB
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4
Location: US and China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice, finding a job in September |
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| Khyron wrote: |
| Walter TB wrote: |
| Any general advice based on my situation as described above?[/list] |
Yes. Please read the stickies. Your questions are all answered there. |
I did read the stickies. They're great and really informative, however, they're written for teachers, not part-time students, so I felt my situation was slightly different.
| Glenski wrote: |
The cultural activities visa is described as follows:
Academic or artistic activities that provide no income, activities for the purpose of pursuing specific studies on Japanese culture or arts, or activities for the purpose of learning and acquiring skills in Japanese culture or arts under the guidance of experts (for example, ikebana, tea ceremony, judo, etc.).
Doesn't say anything about studying the language. I suppose if you studied calligraphy, that would be different, but it's not like learning the language. |
Glenski, I was confused because of this section describing the cultural visa:
Option 3: The Cultural Visa
Cultural visas are issued to foreigners who are planning to study an aspect of Japanese culture. Whether you enroll in Japanese language, judo, cooking, painting, or sumo wrestling classes, your school can help you obtain a cultural visa. If you wish to work while on a cultural visa, you must apply for a work permit through the Japanese Immigration Bureau. A work permit is not the same as a working visa because your primary purpose for being in Japan is to study culture; working is secondary. For this reason, cultural visa holders are permitted to work only twenty hours per week, but many exceed this number off the record.
Applying for a cultural visa is very similar to the working visa application process. Applicants must have a sponsor in Japan that will supply them with a Certificate of Eligibility. Teachers enrolled in classes generally don't burn out as quickly because they spend at least a few hours a week studying Japanese, calligraphy, flower arranging, and so forth. The disadvantages of working on a cultural visa are primarily financial. Courses plus study time can take up quite a few hours per week, leaving fewer hours to teach. They can also be quite expensive. Cultural visas are usually issued for six months to one year, and extensions can be applied for through the Japanese Immigration Bureau.
So unless this section is wrong, Japanese language constitutes culture... I think?
Also, I haven't found a student visa that suits my situation. It seems Japanese student visas are only for pre-college or college students, but as I've said, I've already graduated:
Option 4: The Student Visa
The requirements for this visa are the same as those for the cultural visa except that it is for students who are attending colleges, universities, or vocational schools for courses of study that are not exclusively cultural. If you wish to work, you have to apply for a work permit as you would with a cultural visa because your primary purpose for being in Japan is not to work, but to study. As with the cultural visa, the number of working hours is limited to twenty per week.
I guess my questions have to do with the time period (September), since I will be able to get over there early Sept at the earliest, and feasibility of going on a work visa, rather than a different type. As I said, what is the likelihood of being able to devote substantial amounts of time to studying the language if I don't have much choice of work, and therefore not much choice in terms of schedule? |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| It must be possible for people who have already graduated from college to come here and study Japanese. If I were you I would contact Immigration directly, or your nearest Japanese embassy/consulate, and try to get some info from them- they are the experts. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Walter,
Where did you see that description? It's not from the official MOFA site as far as I know. If it's not, be careful in how others interpret the guidelines.
To be honest, though, I don't personally know anyone who has gotten the cultural activities visa. So, if MOFA allows language study for that type of visa, I am not aware of it. Personally, I would think that would not be permitted, as language for language sake is not a cultural thing, and MOFA seems to keep it separated from student visas, where you could study the language to learn it. Studying Japanese for some other purpose might be possible under a cultural activities visa -- I just don't know what that could be other than calligraphy.
Anyone? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:48 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand why you wouldn't consider language to be part of culture.
Any set of values, ideas, beliefs, behaviour, etc that is learnt and is shared by a united group of people could be seen to be part of that community's culture. Whether that be history, politics, religion, the arts, food or even language.
A culture group may share all of the above, or perhaps only a few, or even other sets of characteristics.
But language is quite strange in that it is one of the few characteristics of culture that actually requires knowledge of other cultural characteristics in order to be fully understood.
I would have thought that this alone would put language learning at the top of list for activities you could do on cultural visa.
But I believe they would be right to simply merge the two visas into one category. Both are issued to those whose primary goal is to study in Japan and both allow for the permission of the same limited working hours to be issued.
Ahh... the digressings of an ex-culture lecturer  |
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Walter TB
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4
Location: US and China
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Walter,
Where did you see that description? It's not from the official MOFA site as far as I know. If it's not, be careful in how others interpret the guidelines. |
Haha, I found it in the FAQ. All that italicized text is from the FAQ. But I agree that language learning does seem to be more of an academic pursuit (though I agree with seklarwia that language is an intricate part of culture, too). Apsara is right, you must be able to study Japanese in Japan after graduating from college. I guess I'll just have to contact the officials...
From the discussion so far, I assume I should try to come here on something other than a work visa, hence limiting me to 20 hours per week of work. I guess the question becomes, does anyone on this forum have any input into learning Japanese when you're teaching English 20 hours per week? Is it hard to fit into a class schedule, does it hamper your language learning etc. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Walter TB wrote: |
| Haha, I found it in the FAQ. |
I guess that needs to be amended, but yes, go to the official MOFA source for accurate wording.
| Quote: |
| I guess the question becomes, does anyone on this forum have any input into learning Japanese when you're teaching English 20 hours per week? Is it hard to fit into a class schedule, does it hamper your language learning etc. |
Uh, yeah. Many people try to study while working. Yes, it's hard. It takes a lot of discipline to set aside time and do the studying. Nobody ever said it was easy.
You may have to tell drinking buddies no.
You may have to skip some sightseeing.
You may go crazy without a tutor, or with a language partner who can't really help you but insists on getting English from you.
Look up Zzonkmiles and what he has written on this topic. A real success story but essentially hard work that has paid off. Ah, heck, I copied 2 of his posts. Here they are.
I have been in Japan for a little less than 11 months. I am currently working at NOVA's Multimedia Center in Osaka.
Ｔhere are some things you should consider. I want to offer you my own perspective in addition to reiterating what has already been said by others.
When you get home from work, you will likely be quite tired and in the mood for a beer or for just going to bed. When you get into this routine, it is quite easy to put off studying until "tomorrow." When you work at an eikaiwa with a regular schedule, every day is essentially the same. The same number of classes, the same working hours, the same low-level English conversations, and the same tired or resigned demeanor when it's time for you to punch out and go home. "Tomorrow" will keep coming and going and before you know it, you will have been here for three or four months and will still be vowing to study "tomorrow" even though you're frustrated and disappointed. So if you really want to study Japanese, you have to break this inertia somehow and force yourself to study.
What does this mean?
This means you choose to study Japanese even though your friends are out boozing up and singing karaoke. I'm not saying don't have fun; I'm saying you have to prioritize.
This means you choose to study Japanese if you are lucky enough to get a free period at work. Most of the other teachers spend their 40-50 minutes of free time gossiping or cracking jokes about their students or what happened when they went to the bar the night before.
Prepare to be isolated from your coworkers and other foreign peers. They may ostracize you for being "high on Japan" or "hardcore" or "wannabe Japanese" or whatever. And because you're living in a foreign country, you're going to want to rely on the "support network" they provide, even if they are disingenuous, for the simple fact that they are foreigners too. So you may not devote as much time to studying as you would ideally like to or should simply because you're lonely and dealing with culture shock.
I came to Japan with only some basic knowledge of grammar (only the present and past tenses), all the hiragana/katakana, and about 75 kanji. Now I'm up to about 600-700 kanji and am able to hold a fairly interactive conversation in Japanese. I can do more than order food at a restaurant or ask when the last train leaves. I would estimate that my Japanese ability places me somewhere between 3-kyu and 2-kyu (I want to take 2-kyu of the JLPT this winter). But I didn't get there by hanging out with my friends after work four nights a week or watching the BBC or CNN in my room and renting English videos.
I got it by isolating myself and enduring occasional ridicule from other teachers whose Japanese ability is limited to "biiru kudasai." I got it by going to bars and restaurants that foreigners usually don't go to and striking up conversations with the bartenders and the regulars. I got it by taking the handbills people distribute on the street and trying to understand the kanji written on them even though I obviously could care less about the product they were advertising. I got it by watching Japanese television and only being able to pick up isolated words and phrases. I got it by riding the subway around Osaka just so I could get free listening practice as the subway approached each stop. I got it by striking up random conversations with the Japanese staff members at my job and asking them what various kanji mean.
Validation of your progress with the language comes in unexpected ways. I remember one time a few months when I decided to venture into a tiny izakaya by myself for the first time. The menu was entirely in Japanese, with the kanji written in cursive strokes, thus making them even more difficult to read. The waitress and the cook were obviously very shocked to see me, and I am confident their English ability was limited to "hello" and "thank you." But I looked at that menu and was able to recognize a few items, and I was even able to ask the waitress what various entrees contained. And I was able to successfully order something I liked, much to my relief as well as that of the waitress and the cook. To me, that was more than enough validation for me to realize that I am indeed progressing with this language and that the approach I have to it is working. Now I'm a regular customer at the izakaya and the cooks regularly talk with me about many different subjects.
I now consider myself to be fairly self-sufficient with this language. I can make out the gist of unfamiliar conversations, I can understand the most important points of any official correspondence I receive, I can tell when other customers in a restaurant are talking about me, and I am able to look up the meanings of various unfamiliar kanji without knowing their hiragana translations of them. And I've become friends with some Japanese who speak no English at all and am able to talk about enough things and understand them well enough for the friendship to survive in a meaningful capacity. But I won't lie--it hasn't been easy.
Japanese is not a language that you can approach in a lukewarm fashion. And you won't learn the language if you don't USE the language. You won't use Japanese if you're hanging out with your fellow English teachers after work. You won't use Japanese if you're reading an English newspaper and watching English movies. You won't use Japanese if you're drinking at the bar with your coworkers. You won't use it if your Japanese girlfriend only speaks to you in English. You really have to force yourself to stick with it.
If you have never undertaken foreign language study before, you may be unfamiliar with how languages are acquired. You may retain a lot of new information easily at first. But then there comes a time when your brain will feel "full" and your Japanese may actually regress a bit. But you have to be patient with yourself and keep trying before you're able to retain more information. And then you'll plateau again...So be prepared.
My goal is not to become a translator. I would, however, like to pass Level 2 of the JLPT this year. Your experience in Japan would be MUCH more rewarding if you have some language ability to assist you. The Japanese will treat you quite differently too. The whole country will open up to you in a way it can't for those who can't speak or understand the language.
Before you come to Japan, I would recommend that you at least learn the hiragana and katakana. They are fairly easy to pick up (I personally had more difficulty with the katakana, as several of the characters look alike) and will allow you to write down every word in Japanese. Romaji (that is, the letters you see in this post) is rarely used here except for a few street signs and maps in larger cities. So at least learn the hiragana/katakana scripts first. There are only about 45 of each. Mastering these will allow you to write down every word in Japanese. Then learn some of the most basic kanji (numbers, days of the week, basic verbs, etc.).
And lastly, if you're only going to stay in Japan for about a year, let me tell you something important. It's not necessary for you to endure the torture of trying to learn 1000 kanji if you will only be in Japan for a short period. I'm all for ambition and the desire to try and fit in with the locals. But you have to be practical. And realistic. I want to speak fluently too. But I'm patient. Walk before you can run. And don't be too hard on yourself when you find that this language just doesn't "click" with you sometimes. Even I have my "dekiru/dekinai" (can do/can't do) days. I'm not where I want to be just yet, but I'm much further down the road than when I first got here last summer.
(about a year later)
Simply put, Japanese is hard. Kanji is hard. So much can be omitted from both spoken and written communication. It's not like an Indo-European language where you get "free" words, such as "gasolina" and "secreto" and "Vater und Mutter." You really have to immerse yourself in this language if you want to break out of the robotic "genki desu ka? watashi ha Tomu desu" stage. And this immersion takes time. It has taken me almost two years of fairly serious study to get to the point where I can be reasonably self-sufficient. One year of college study is not going to prepare you for life here. Obviously it'll help. But there's a big difference between studying Japanese for 50 minutes three times a week at your university and actually LIVING in Japan, where "class" is always in session.
Japanese is EVERYWHERE, and it can take a toll on you if you're not disciplined.
1. Imagine buying a new electronic gadget and not knowing how to read the remote control, let alone the instruction manual.
2. Imagine wanting to use a copy machine to copy your passport but not knowing which button to push to start the machine or operate the machine in general.
3. Imagine going to a restaurant and the menu is written entirely in cursive kanji. So not only can you not read the menu, but even if you could, you still probably wouldn't know what you were ordering.
4. Imagine wanting to catch a city bus or a local train and the entire schedule and timetable is written in Japanese. Good luck getting where you want to go!
5. Imagine receiving a strange bill in the mail and not knowing what the bill is for or what you're supposed to do with it.
6. Imagine getting sick and having to call the operator so you can find an English-speaking doctor. What if the operator doesn't understand you? And vice versa?
7. Imagine going into a supermarket and not knowing how to cook any of the food there because you can't read the cooking instructions.
8. Imagine getting lost and having to ask for directions in a foreign language. Hope this doesn't happen to you after the last train!
9. Imagine trying to take care of official or serious business at a hospital, a bank, or the local ward office and you can't understand what the office worker is saying.
10. Imagine watching TV and not understanding the overwhelming majority of what you're watching.
For beginners and the undisciplined, Japan and the Japanese language are TOUGH. |
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Walter TB
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4
Location: US and China
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the info! |
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