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[barnaby2008]

Quick question to help with some research if that's okay.

Do beginners tend to pronounce words spelt with a 'u' with a Polish 'u' sound? So 'luck' sounds a bit like 'look'?

If so, how quickly does this tend to stop?

Any info appreciated. let me know if the question isn't clear.

Cheers

[hrvatski]

If a beginner has never encountered the word before and doesn't have a teacher to model it or IPA spelling, then sure.

But the chances are even beginners have come across this word in pop culture or the media before in set expressions, i.e. 'good luck' or 'lucky you', and would be aware of the correct pronunciation.

Either way, Polish learners seem to overcome it quickly and to be honest I've never noticed it being mispronounced (ok, maybe it sounds like a Polish 'a' sometimes).

Words like mountain, doubt, or vegetable however, plague them for the rest of their English speaking career.

[barnaby2008]

Thanks for this, very interesting.

I'm only using 'luck' as an example, I'm really wondering about any words spelt with a 'u' that have that same pronunciation.

At some point I imagine learners encounter a new word with this spelling and automatically use the correct pronunciation rather than Polish 'u'. I was just wondering how quickly this comes about in your experience.

So, early on in their learning if they see a word they are unlikely to have encountered before, say 'pluck', I imagine they may use Polish 'u', but if the same situation occurred later on in their learning with another new word, they would automatically go for (southern) english 'u'. It's the frequency of this mistake I'm interetsed in.

Thanks again

[hrvatski]

It would vary from person to person but I think a Polish learner should have the -uck pattern down by pre-intermediate if not earlier. They'll probably make mistakes with the -ump ending longer (mumps, pump, lump, thump) as these words are less common.

In the end it comes down to noticing, a skill which learners possess in varying levels. I really think after learning 3 fairly basic words, for example, luck, suck and truck, they should be able to pronounce at least the last syllable of thunderstruck correctly. They might still mess up the u in thunder though.

[Scawie]

They'd be more likely to pronounce it as "lack". Pub isn't "poob", it's pab.

[barnaby2008]

Thanks hrvatski, very useful. Am I right in thinking it's not a particularly significant error then - or at least one that solves itself pretty early?

Scawie - that makes sense, but does this happen after they have realised it's not polish 'u'? Doo you think they hear (southern) English 'u' then try to match that, but end up with an 'a' sound?

All useful stuff, cheers.

[hrvatski]

You're right in thinking that, there are more significant pronunciation issues I would focus on from pre-intermediate and up.

I believe what Scawie says is correct, and I believe like you say they are trying to imitate an English 'u' (not quite sure what you mean when you say southern English), but they end up with a Polish 'a', since that's the closest equivalent in the Polish language. Anyone but truly dedicated and astute learners are not particularly bothered to fix this either, just like I'm not bothered to correctly pronounce the separate 'cz' and 'ci' sounds in Polish.

[barnaby2008]

When I say southern, I mean southern British Eng as opposed to northern British English (where 'luck' would generally sound the same as 'look').

Totally agree with the tendency to use something close to Polish 'a', I hear that a lot with Polish speakers here in the UK. What's interesting to me is how quickly they change from using Polish 'u' (as the spelling would suggest) to using Polish 'a' (as the sound would suggest). Shows how important perception is I guess.

[maarg]

[barnaby2008]

Yes, that is extremely helpful, thank you very much.

I'm finding things to be pretty much as you say, especially with 'luck' and 'sun' being more open and more back than English /ʌ /.

Really useful, thanks Maarg