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[blateson]

HO CHI MINH CITY (AFP) � It is early evening and another night of singing has begun in earnest at Style Karaoke, a plush club where high-flyers in Vietnam's commercial capital come to let off steam.

Music blasts from behind the glass doors of the small rooms where groups gather to sing and, as the rhythm takes hold, to dance.

And that, the communist government says, is the problem.

It wants to ban dancing at karaoke bars in what reports have said is a bid to limit drug use.

The Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism posted the proposed ban on its website last month and invited public comment on the move, its latest attempt to clamp down on lawlessness at the popular singing venues.

But at Style and other neon-lit clubs on Su Van Hanh street, the heart of karaoke entertainment in the city formerly known as Saigon, the proposal is dismissed as unworkable.

"I think it's not feasible because these people who go to karaoke want to relieve their stress," says Dang Duy Thanh, the gel-haired manager of Style.

"If we just force them to stay there singing without feeling comfortable, that's not right".

Article here

[inky]

This should certainly discourage people from coming to Vietnam to teach.

[saigon cowboy]

Yes, i'm packing my bags tonight. How can i live without karaoke and sexy girls....how can i teach effectively.... ?

[Green Acres]

The ban was thought up after several reports of karaoke outings going amiss. It's difficult to drink, sing, and dance at the same time, and while drinking and singing are both profitable, the dancing must go.

"It's simply not a pretty sight," said one long time karaoke employee who wishes to remain anonymous. "We want them to have a good time, but watching these grown men and women dance....well, we have a lot of turnover here, and without the dancing, this job would be bareable."

"Besides," commented another employee, "Uncle Ho doesn't dance!"

[inky]

Did you mean 'bareable' as a play on words, or can you not spell?

And foreigners disrespecting Ho Chi Minh isn't cool, it's none of your business. Let's see you mock the Saudi Royal Family in your new location.

[Green Acres]

Really, inky, you could have picked a better fight, don't you think?

I have read that you are a professional, have been living in the country for a long time (I assumed more than 10 years), and have a leadership position in a language center. Perhaps I am wrong about that, and certainly your attack upon me has left me in much doubt as to who you are and what you wish to attain. I had thought you a more helpful type of person, but many of your posts are starting to make me think otherwise.

Do you speak Vietnamese? Maybe we are not even on the same page. I see you have done some research, though not very thorough. If you had, then you would not have found any misspelled words in my previous posts. What makes you think the word is misspelled? I think your initial argument should be that my choice of words doesn't suit your sense of logic -- however, I also discarded "barable" (I don't think it's a word, and too lazy to check) and "bearable" (because it's not funny). Can you tell me what the topic of dancing in karaoke bars has to do with English teaching in Vietnam? In essence, the topic is a spoof. I chose to lampoon it further. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it.

Your second allegation is really ill-put and needless. For starters, I know about 5 Uncle Hoes. Ho is a common family name. Many people have an uncle ho (I may even have an uncle Ho I haven't met!). The name Ho Chi Minh refers to one person and only one person, the father of the country (not the uncle of the country!!). No one may have this name, ever. It's like his jersey was retired. I would never make fun of such a brave and intelligent man. He is one of the reasons that I came to Vietnam, so that I could learn more.

I respect Ho Chi Minh highly and it is too bad that he passed before the country was unified. Maybe he would have done a better job of unifying and setting the course for the future. I don't admire the way he has been brand stretched and used since his passing. That's not his fault.

In the end, the article states that the Hanoi government (ie. Party officials) seeks to ban dancing. This will never happen, as many of us who live or have lived in Vietnam know.

So why isn't the thread eliminated by the moderators? The fact is that information is scarce and unreliable. This forum is a very good place to observe testimonial accounts -- which I find to be very reliable. I have often recommended this site to workers in other fields going to a foreign country because of the many different opinions and slices of life that are provided by teachers (mostly) in an informed way. While these workers may not care for the teaching conversations, threads such as these provide different insights into life and living in another country.

Your comments are mostly unwarranted, and in fact, I have seen that you attack many people who write on this forum, though I'm not sure why. Why do you feel the need to attack others? What do you mean by "it's none of your business?" Is there a difference between us that I cannot see, but that you can? Tell me more, please, since I would like to understand the reasons for your emotional appeal.

[mach114]

Green Acres, I am truly not being critical. However, Ho Chi Minh is commonly called Bac Ho by most Vietnamese. Bac Ho is often translated to English as Uncle Ho and it does mean the father of the country and so forth. While there are other people named Ho who might even be your uncle if you talk to a Vietnamese person in Vietnamese or English and you say something about Bac Ho or in English Uncle Ho they will automatically assume you are talking about Ho Chi Minh. I just wanted to clarify for those who may not be familiar with this.

[inky]

"I know about 5 Uncle Hoes..."
Do they assist with your gardening?

[Green Acres]

I know you are not being critical, yet consider the application of the moniker "uncle ho". When was it first used? How was it used? I won't get to deep into it here, I think such research is for individuals to gather and assess for themselves.

Uncle Sam is actually Sam Adams, right? Big Brother is the government (or a popular Janis Joplin back up band!'). I've been here for a while. I've done much research, and actually, as the title of this thread indicates, "Uncle Ho" who is known as Ho Chi Minh, did not engage in western comforts such as drink and dance. It is because of this, that the Hanoi government can easily proclaim that they will ban dancing in karaoke bars, and should they have to, enforce the declaration. Of course the problem with research on Ho Chi Minh is that he clearly had several different lives.

I knew I would get you inky (is that all you got?), and they don't help me with my gardening, though that would really be great. Most of them are Xe om drivers, oddly enough. Perhaps Uncle Ho is not their real name and they just told me that (would that be a mockery, geez!).

[mach114]

Unless these xe om drivers or gardeners (whatever they may be) are your Uncles then you would not call them Bac Ho. A man or woman over 60 who is not part of your family is simply called "Bac". Usually you don't call these folks by their name unless you know them really well or they are part of your family. Either way, in modern Vietnamese culture as in the present day. Bac Ho immediately causes one to assume you are talking about Ho Chi Minh. If you are not, then you must usually clarify this. I have had this conversation several times in Vietnamese with many different people because my great aunt in Vietnam is named Ho.

As far as the karaoke bar dancing goes I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately it often leads to prostitution and drugs, which are all too common at these types of places. Bac Ho would not be caught dead in one of these places. He would also not condone a lot of what goes on in Ho Chi Minh City these days. If he was alive things would certainly be different.

[abulinhthi]

In my experience, the use of "Bac" is quite flexible. I usually know the names of the people who are or WERE ACTUALLY the brothers of my "father" or "mother". I use the terms "father" or "mother" in quotes, because they were not actually MY parents, but because my wife says the terms for "father" or "mother", then I must use the same terms also. Bac would refer to the brothers of the parents of my wife. Her parents are both deceased. I need to call them "Bac" because my wife calls them Bac.

My understanding is, the "title" you give anyone is determined by several factors, one of which is your association with the person who calls them that title. Thus, if my wife says, "Bac Trang", I have to call him that, too. If I don't know their actual names, I would use "Anh". Or I would use "Ong" if they're older.

But "Bac" does not apply, as far as I understand it, to the husband of the woman I have to call "Auntie". Like, the husband of my aunt, in English??? I don't really know what THAT term is! I think it depends, actually......

On the other hand, I would never use "Bac" as a sign of respect in the same way that other cultures do: Like "Don" or "Dona" in Spanish, or "Ahmi" in Arabic. I would use "Anh" or "Ong", for a man.

But "Bac" can also be used for "Auntie", right? The same rules apply: If my wife says "Bac", then I have to also. But not just for any (older) woman, as a sign of respect. I think I would say "Chi" in this case, i.e., for a woman who could be as old as my aunt.

My newest joke is, "Hey, I can call anybody 'em' because at my age, EVERYONE is younger than me!"

[Green Acres]

The choice of pronoun to use is confusing to anyone who speaks the language. I've witnessed my friends (who are Vietnamese) make mistakes in this regard. The first time I saw this, I was like, "wow, it's not just me!!"

I find it quite nice that as one gets older, the choices become easier, as you say, "EVERYONE becomes 'em'". Perhaps this is to protect us in older age, a sort of linguistic crutch?

[saigon cowboy]

Inky likes to challenge people and he's taken a jab at me on occasion. I like his posts actually, but I often don't agree with him.

Who knows...he might be your neighbor or co-teacher

[Revenant]

Since people cant be civil and the thread's revival was nothing but an attempt to antagonize and further derail the original topic, this thread is locked.

Those involved in the thread on both sides of the antagonism can rest assured that if they try to bring this enmity to another thread, then they'll be issued a month's suspension from the forums.