|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
menso35
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 51
|
 Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Paying for the privilege to work in China |
 |
|
Before taxes and monthly expenses, it would take me at least 2 months to recoup my out of pocket start up costs, probably more like 3 months (visa expenses, flights, necessities for the apartment, first and last months rent, deposit, leasing agent commission, and supplemental health insurance).
To further make it not worth it, I would be taking a job sight unseen. Although I realize the sterling reputation of employers there, there still exists a tiny, although highly unlikely, possibility of getting screwed over  Apparently if you have a RP you have to get a letter of release to change jobs, just like Korea. So if your employer is a crook you basically have to beg or bribe them so that you can find another job.
This situation has bad news and heartache written all over it. If you guys think there is going to be this massive influx of westerners coming to teach, think again. I don't know anyone who could afford to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
suanlatudousi
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 384
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| So why aren't you seeking a job in your home country? It sounds like you need to be working immediately because you have no money? Few people are worried about some influx I'm sure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
menso35
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 51
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ^^I think you missed my point. It's not so much about the money but the expectations of some employers. I just think it's a bit ridiculous to have to pay three to four months salary up front to be able to work somewhere. On top of that you will have to work for a month before being paid. That is just too big of a leap of faith if you ask me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
suanlatudousi
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 384
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've never used it, but many employers will give you an advance on salary to get started. Many jobs also provide free housing. Should you not like the housing provided it kind of "lays on your head" to pay for something. I'm willing to be that the great majority of folks take their employers housing situation. I have my own house and the "finder agent" charged me 20 RMB to look at the place, that's it.
All costs are variable at many levels.
I hardly think anything is prohibitive. But, for those that it is clearly shouldn't try to go overseas. Korea is a better choice as many employers will fly you out on their dime in advance.
Enjoy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
changshaman
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 36
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| menso35 wrote: |
| That is just too big of a leap of faith if you ask me. |
Umm, who is asking you to? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| menso35 wrote: |
| ^^I think you missed my point. It's not so much about the money but the expectations of some employers. I just think it's a bit ridiculous to have to pay three to four months salary up front to be able to work somewhere. On top of that you will have to work for a month before being paid. That is just too big of a leap of faith if you ask me. |
I see it more as a (problematic) set of expectations by laowai teachers. Yes, I agree, some of us get shortchanged, cheated, screwed by our dear Leaders, but it is equally true that a substantial number of FTs really are liabilities to their employers.
The biggest problem most laowais manifest is a strong (and unfounded) belief in their uniqueness, a sort of entitlement to a job in acountry that isstill developing. Look at thread such as 'Dilettante older teachers...' to see what I mean. This is, in my humble view, a huge attitudinal shortcoming that reflects poorly on foreigners in general.
In your own post I found at least one claim that is a little far-fetched: Few people will actually need to pay for rental, an agent and a deposit at all, let alone 4 months' equivalent of your salary.
This is usually THEIR own choice since they want to live off campus, and possibly moonlight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mosley
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 158
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OP, you're right on. NO way in hell you should accept contract terms like that...you'd be far better off taking the average Korean contract(downside:you have to live in Korea).... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
|
| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Yes, I agree, some of us get shortchanged, cheated, screwed by our dear Leaders, but it is equally true that a substantial number of FTs really are liabilities to their employers. |
While true that the schools take a chance, it is the FT that finances that chance ... the op has legitimate concerns about investment and payoff... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
suanlatudousi
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 384
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| evaforsure wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, I agree, some of us get shortchanged, cheated, screwed by our dear Leaders, but it is equally true that a substantial number of FTs really are liabilities to their employers. |
While true that the schools take a chance, it is the FT that finances that chance ... the op has legitimate concerns about investment and payoff... |
Why ? A person who get's there legal working visa in their home country, comes to China with a properly read, informed, signed contracts, lives in the school provided housing after having asked informed questions and maybe asked for photos prior to contract agreement, and has contacted prior and/or current teachers, then there is little reason to live day-to-day with paranoia that something is going to happen to the "investment and payoff" issue.
I believe many issues can be resolved with "informed consent" and the teacher accepting responsibility for "not knowing something" they feel is relevant prior to arrival in China. Of course, there are times false information is relayed and the like, but I have had no issues with such problems in China and a great deal of foreigners I've come across haven't had problems either.
The problem lies in people that don't know how to do any foot-work as it prior to agreeing on a contract from their home country. The fact that so many people get up and arrive on L or F visas and then wonder why things are "so bad" just stuns me. A simple internet search shows visa laws. When I came to China I researched visas, immigration requirements, and customs requirements. It would have been a god forbid issue that I brought a wrong prescription medicine in my bag that tossed me into prison or too much of this or too much of that that caused me to pay heavy import taxes or caused forfeiture.
Nobody accepts responsibility at all - rather, they just apply blame in anyway that they can on anyone they choose. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Add me to the ones who don't get the original post. Travel costs money. Sometimes its worth it, sometimes the mint on your pillow melts. It costs money to relocate whether in your home country or to a foreign country. If you have sterling qualifications and are in high demand, you can expect to be paid for your trouble. If not, you have to decide if it is worth the cost. Risk can be factored in as cost.
For someone with average qualifications to teach English (bachelor of Arts/Science, Tefl/Tesol/Celta certificate, 2 years experience) and sometimes less, China is a good option. Housing is normally provided and normally decent to good. Airfare is usually reimbursed (usually at the end of the contract but is often negotiable). Start up costs are minimal in most situations. But only a fool or someone desperate for work would arrive without contingency funds in the case that something goes wrong.
It really comes down to whether one would otherwise enjoy living in China with its advantages and disadvantages. Salaries for foreign teachers are good for the work involved and compared to living expenses and the salaries afford some travel. On the other hand, paying Western bills may prove to difficult and the money probably won't be enough to live in a Western country. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Cause Sh*t happens... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
patsy
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 179
Location: china
|
| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
you're right. There is no way you can be prepared for what you will walk into when you get here. It doesn't matter how many conversations you've had with the waiban, photos, or past teachers "testimonies", it doesn't mean things will go smoothly or that any info is true.
Unless you have extra funds or another strong purpose for coming, I wouldn't do it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| ^^I think you missed my point. It's not so much about the money but the expectations of some employers. I just think it's a bit ridiculous to have to pay three to four months salary up front to be able to work somewhere. On top of that you will have to work for a month before being paid. That is just too big of a leap of faith if you ask me. |
I see it more as a (problematic) set of expectations by laowai teachers. Yes, I agree, some of us get shortchanged, cheated, screwed by our dear Leaders, but it is equally true that a substantial number of FTs really are liabilities to their employers. |
i really don't like your generalizing..."some" and then "substantial"? i really don't think that such a farfetched (as you say of the OP's wording) number of fts are liabilities to their employers. i believe that many fts want to that job they've come to do and many try hard. a "substantial number of" JOB APPLICATIONS goes through the chinese HR or any clueless administrators that either don't speak english well enough or have lil knowledge of the western culture which is so dangerous when recruiting. but yes you've got a point that there are irresponsible fts with intentions to travel only.
by the way, i've been working hard in this country for 8 years and've got screwed a few times, on my salary (late or not according to contract), accomdation, role in classroom etc.
| Quote: |
| In your own post I found at least one claim that is a little far-fetched: Few people will actually need to pay for rental, an agent and a deposit at all, let alone 4 months' equivalent of your salary. |
again, your generalizing is wrong. that probably happened a few years back. situation is changing as i see it. to my knowledge there are more and more employers without a place to offer. however, they offer an allowance. that might be due to those that do not want to live in a school's apartment which poses a risk when one comes to disagreements with his/her employer. imagine they'll just kick you out on the street coldbloodedly.
| Quote: |
| The biggest problem most laowais manifest is a strong (and unfounded) belief in their uniqueness, a sort of entitlement to a job in acountry that isstill developing. Look at thread such as 'Dilettante older teachers...' to see what I mean. This is, in my humble view, a huge attitudinal shortcoming that reflects poorly on foreigners in general. |
i think that the biggest problem is their false expectation or not being offered that academic position. the role many fts are put into is just not as academic, is it? aren't they entitled to a real academic position that is advertised..the teacher?
| Quote: |
| This is usually THEIR own choice since they want to live off campus, and possibly moonlight |
i ain't pickin'on ya, but i bet they live off campus to be free.
OP, i see your point and i relate to your original post so much. I too am in a situation now that i have to put up 3 months rent in advance as i am accepting a new job offer. i too have to produce a letter of release that i actually have. and, believe it or not but there is a RECOMMANDATION LETTER requested by the chinese regulations if you change jobs but as it looks at the moment it only applies to some areas and within cities. employers are extreemly unwilling to produce this letter since they have to apparently access the letter on the gov website. how shameful regulation this is. 
and, a couple weeks back i was offered a job where i would only get 3000 end of contract flight reimbursement (with receipt), but only if i signed the second year with them since i am proud and there's virtually no respectable job in the city where i've lived for 4 years, i am forced to move out (with my family-10months old son). shame on the tendancy this country's job market is going
cheers and beers to all of our points of views and generalizations we have |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
menso35
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 51
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I am sure China will do just fine without me.
It's not so much the money that scares me. What scares me is the whole letter of release/recommendation issue. Your employer basically owns you. If there were some kind of provision for switching jobs in case things go awry I would be much more comfortable. I am not a rookie. I have been burned in both China and Korea on more than one occasion. I have also been burned on flight reimbursements as well.
Yep, I guess I am just a spoiled westerner with a big sense of entitlement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
|
| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| What scares me is the whole letter of release/recommendation issue. Your employer basically owns you. |
You may find this is the case in any work situation where a visa is required...
| Quote: |
| Yep, I guess I am just a spoiled westerner with a big sense of entitlement. |
I would fathom a guess that you have checked out the situation and felt that the risk was not out weighed by the possible gain ...... in this case, you have made the choice which is best for you .. I have to agree ..that given the money that is offered.. it is a unwise investment and there fore if looking at a job as an investment.. it is a bad choice ..if look at a job as an adventure.. one damn fine choice... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
