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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:53 am Post subject: Legal working options without a Z |
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Which visas allow you to earn money, what are the conditions?
F allows you to do business, lectures, and training. When is it legal, and when is it illegal?
The internship visa can be a paid internship.
When is it legal to work on an L?
I have seen city and provencal governments in China hire foreigners to teach Summer camps with L, F, and out of provence Z visas.
There are top schools and companies that hire foreigners on F visas. I have also seen licensed schools save money by getting F visas, and nothing bad happened as long as you did not leave that city. When is it ok for a school or company to use an F? Or some other visa?
Are city leaders in opposition to the PSB and immigration authorities of PRC? Normally, they work together. Regulations can be waived for powerful Chinese bosses. As the lowly foreigner, it would be nice to know the legal options for making some money. Those options often do not compare to Z jobs. But the Z jobs have mostly grown worse each year. What was once massive overtime is just another day at work. What was full-time is now part-time. There are exceptions.
Last edited by Riff Raff on Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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El Macho
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 200
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Piper2
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Legal working options without a Z |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
Which visas allow you to earn money, what are the conditions?
F allows you to do business, lectures, and training. When is it legal, and when is it illegal?
The internship visa can be a paid internship.
When is it legal to work on an L?
I have seen city and provencal governments in China hire foreigners to teach Summer camps with L, F, and out of provence Z visas.
There are top schools and companies that hire foreigners on F visas. I have also seen licensed schools save money by getting F visas, and nothing bad happened as long as you did not leave that city. When is it ok for a school or company to use an F? Or some other visa?
Are city leaders in opposition to the PSB and immigration authorities of PRC? Normally, they work together. Regulations can be waived for powerful Chinese bosses. As the lowly foreigner, it would be nice to know the legal options for making some money. Those options often do not compare to Z jobs. But the Z jobs have mostly grown worse each year. What was once massive overtime is just another day at work. What was full-time is now part-time. There are exceptions. |
This has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere but...
If you plan to receive money in China for teaching English in China then you need a Z visa (and then a Residence Permit issued for the purposes of work, and a Foreign Expert Certificate). End of story.
However, TIC... As is known to all, in our China a coin always has two sides if you or the people you will work for know the right people in the right way. However, that does not mean that all because you somehow get that job and become everyone's new best foreign friend and are invited every other day to eat delicious food that nothing bad will happen. Because, as is known to all, in our China a coin always has two sides. The flip side of you getting a job illegally is that YOU -and rarely your employer- run the distinct risk of discovering how colourful life can be in China and how easily your new found besties disown you.
This is ture, why run the risk with so many legal jobs out there? But some people think a legal job is just soso and no pain no gain. If you are one of those people just go for it! The future is bright! |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, I'd like to throw in that working on an F-visa for 3 or 4 weeks at a summer camp is a lot different than working year round with it. Not saying it's any more "legal" to use it for summer camp work, but if and when someone were to catch wind of it, your job is nearly over anyway. I'd imagine, of course, if you DID get caught doing summer work on the wrong visa, the consequences would probably be the same as if you were to get caught any other time of the year. |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Just because companies let you work or advertise for workers to teach on a tourist visa or f visa doesn't mean it is legal |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen city and provencal governments in China hire foreigners to teach Summer camps with L, F, and out of provence Z visas.
I've also seen some top schools currently have F visa holders give lectures.
How are city governments, provencal governments, companies, and schools in China allowed to hire foreigners on L and F visas?
The reply of "obey or leave" do not apply. How is it being done legally? It happens. Are the same people barking "obey or leave" challenging the government on this illegal practice? Or is it legal?
For F, you're allowed to give instruction. L is just a tourist visa. How are governments allowed to hire people on visas like an L? What makes it legal?
This is an ESL site, so the question includes ESL and non ESL. How can you legally make money without a Z? The replies here are that it is not legal, and it is sometimes. If it is a crime for the L, what do any of you do when it involves the government? Nothing. That's called hypocrisy.
Instead of targeting foreigners for your hatred of foreign people, please keep answers to the original questions. I have the names of people responsible for the organizing of illegal hiring in China. I've got proof. You know you would destroy yourself if you talked to them the way you talk to foreigners. |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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First paragraph states - Less than three months is OK for an F.
Second paragraph says you need a work visa if a contract is made for any length. So, we can conclude Tsinghua, Beida, and other schools are possibly hiring foreigners illegally unless they do it without a contract. I'll ask my friends. I think no contract is signed for short term engagements.
It appears that F visas are legal for less than three months, no contract. I would not suggest renewing such an agreement repeatedly.... at least, not in the same place. I'd rather not live that nomadic lifestyle. I've met a few who do. If you plan a short term stay in China, then that allows you to take on some short term pay. LEGALLY.
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7. When is a Z (work) visa required, as opposed to an M (business) visa?
A Z (work) visa is required if a foreign national has a labor relationship with a PRC work unit. In addition, a foreigner with a foreign labor contract and foreign source of remuneration will need a Z (work) visa if engaged in work-like activities for 3 months or more. According to a Labor Department order:
For foreigners working (工作) in China, if the labor contract is concluded with a domestic work unit (in its legal place), regardless of how long the work in China will be, it will be considered employment (就业) in China. |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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The bottom line here Riff Raff is that if you work without the proper legal paperwork for the job that you are doing, then you are working illegally. It doesn't matter who your employer is, because they are also breaking the law. Whether they are a private school owner or a government official, they are still breaking the law by knowingly employing you without the proper documents. 'The government' is not employing you illegally, only some government officials, it's not the same thing.
| Quote: |
How are city governments, provencal governments, companies, and schools in China allowed to hire foreigners on L and F visas? |
They are not. Full stop. They are breaking the law as much as the people they employ are. The question is who is most likely to be punished for this breach of the law if someone else decides to enforce it? It won't be the government officials, that's for sure, unless they become the target of political infighting and someone decides to use it against them. The foreign teacher would still get prosecuted and/or deported in the fallout from that however.
It feels to me that you are trying to find some kind of loophole to make it okay to work illegally. Yes, lots of people do it. Yes, government officials and people with power and influence hire them. None of them do it legally. They break the laws of their own country. The question you should be asking yourself is not 'how can I work in China without the required and legal paperwork I need', but rather 'how can I get the required and legal paperwork to allow me to work safely and securely'. |
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Piper2
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
I have seen city and provencal governments in China hire foreigners to teach Summer camps with L, F, and out of provence Z visas.
I've also seen some top schools currently have F visa holders give lectures.
How are city governments, provencal governments, companies, and schools in China allowed to hire foreigners on L and F visas?
The reply of "obey or leave" do not apply. How is it being done legally? It happens. Are the same people barking "obey or leave" challenging the government on this illegal practice? Or is it legal?
For F, you're allowed to give instruction. L is just a tourist visa. How are governments allowed to hire people on visas like an L? What makes it legal?
This is an ESL site, so the question includes ESL and non ESL. How can you legally make money without a Z? The replies here are that it is not legal, and it is sometimes. If it is a crime for the L, what do any of you do when it involves the government? Nothing. That's called hypocrisy.
Instead of targeting foreigners for your hatred of foreign people, please keep answers to the original questions. I have the names of people responsible for the organizing of illegal hiring in China. I've got proof. You know you would destroy yourself if you talked to them the way you talk to foreigners. |
| Riff Raff wrote: |
First paragraph states - Less than three months is OK for an F.
Second paragraph says you need a work visa if a contract is made for any length. So, we can conclude Tsinghua, Beida, and other schools are possibly hiring foreigners illegally unless they do it without a contract. I'll ask my friends. I think no contract is signed for short term engagements.
It appears that F visas are legal for less than three months, no contract. I would not suggest renewing such an agreement repeatedly.... at least, not in the same place. I'd rather not live that nomadic lifestyle. I've met a few who do. If you plan a short term stay in China, then that allows you to take on some short term pay. LEGALLY.
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7. When is a Z (work) visa required, as opposed to an M (business) visa?
A Z (work) visa is required if a foreign national has a labor relationship with a PRC work unit. In addition, a foreigner with a foreign labor contract and foreign source of remuneration will need a Z (work) visa if engaged in work-like activities for 3 months or more. According to a Labor Department order:
For foreigners working (工作) in China, if the labor contract is concluded with a domestic work unit (in its legal place), regardless of how long the work in China will be, it will be considered employment (就业) in China. |
Is this an academic exercise, or are you seriously trying to find loopholes in Chinese visa regulations, or are you trolling? One seems kind of pointless, another kind of risky, the last irritating if we choose to tolerate you.
Ok, let's assume you are not a troll...
The world over, there is law. Most people abide by the law. In other words most locals and foreigners do what is generally accepted to be the current interpretation of what the law is. Most people do this because life is hard. Why look for trouble, you know?
Of course, there are also the few people who do not abide by the law. Why/how do these people get away with it? Well, they may know the right people and have their protection (for however long that lasts), or they may know of some loophole and just the right way of making the most of it (for however long that lasts), or they could be lucky and be ignored or go unnoticed (for however long that lasts).
You want to replicate what these few people have done? Well, I assume they know how to schmooze the right people and are in a position to, or they have an excellent knowledge of Chinese law and are reckless enough to try to make a point. You cannot replicate being lucky however, you just are or you are not, and regardless of how lucky others are or you have been in the past.
Although you yourself tell us that it is very clearly stated that "A Z (work) visa is required if a foreign national has a labor relationship with a PRC work unit", you also point out that "It appears that F visas are legal for less than three months, no contract". This appears to be a contradiction, a loophole, and you want to make the most of it.
What I am trying to get across to you is that it is reckless for the average foreigner to work without a z-visa. You may get away with it but why take the risk? If you are caught it will be the PSB and Chinese Courts who decide whether your non-z visa entitles you to work in (their perception of) your particular situation and whether this should supersede the more general "a foreigner must have a z-visa to work". What is special about you that they will rule in your favour?
Having said that I do know of one precedent that seems to "legally" contradict the general z-visa regulations: BC IELTS examining. For years the BC have used examiners sponsored by other other companies and non-z visa holders. Apparently the BC claim they have Chinese government protection. Considering the BC have openly operated in this way for many years all over China I have no reason to doubt they had protection. I say "had protection" because (as extensively discussed on another thread) since December last year that protection has failed them and they are in the process of legally employing the third of the examiners they will keep. When that protection failed, the BC did its utmost to continue making profits, including without notice ceasing to employ many examiners for speaking-work and off-premises. The BC continues to operate within a temporary loophole. I think it is significant that the BC never warned examiners that they were technically working illegally, even those on z-visas.
What am I saying here? I am saying that although some companies have official or unofficial protection and may be able to employ you illegally/"legally", you will still be the one who has the most to lose -including sudden loss of employment and possibly even arrest, detention, extended jail time and deportation. You will depend on the protection, integrity and loyalty of a company that is probably focused on profit and has already proven it is willing to break the law.
As I have already mentioned, there is plenty of legal work out there, there is no need to take unnecessary risks.
(After posting saw that doogsville wrote something similar.)
Last edited by Piper2 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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No, doogsville, I'm not looking for loopholes. I'm looking for clear cut legal options.
Your other comments were spot on. The part about the government was mostly true. I've seen Education bureaus hire illegally, some of the depts top cadre present and in the know. There are schools and businesses that have the same protections. Nothing will happen unless one of the leaders gets in a bind. But I would not suggest working under those conditions even if you'll probably never get hurt.
I also don't suggest working in illegal zones such as military. A blind eye is turned again because they've got power and want a foreign teacher.
My question was clear. What are the legal possibilities other than Z. I'd take great offense to your words if I could muster an iota of caring. Rather than exploring the fact that the law is commonly broken by powers that be, my interest is knowing the legal options. Legally, YES you can work on visas other than Z. The F has been covered here. The internship visa has not. Your notion that it is Z or nothing is simply untrue and misleading. Your caution about breaking the law is spot on.
Last edited by Riff Raff on Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Piper2
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
No, doogsville, what feels to you is wrong.
Your other comments were spot on. The part about the government was mostly true. I've seen Education bureaus hire illegally, some of the depts top cadre present and in the know. There are schools and businesses that have the same protections. Nothing will happen unless one of the leaders gets in a bind. But I would not suggest working under those conditions even if you'll probably never get hurt.
I also don't suggest working in illegal zones such as military. A blind eye is turned again because they've got power and want a foreign teacher.
My question was clear. What are the legal possibilities other than Z. I'd take great offense to your words if I could muster an iota of caring. Rather than exploring the fact that the law is commonly broken by powers that be, my interest is knowing the legal options. Legally, YES you can work on visas other than Z. The F has been covered here. The internship visa has not. Your notion that it is Z or nothing is simply untrue and misleading. Your caution about breaking the law is spot on. |
Trolling? It has been explained to him/her. What other reasonable explanation is there? |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Piper2 wrote: |
Is this an academic exercise, or are you seriously trying to find loopholes in Chinese visa regulations, or are you trolling? One seems kind of pointless, another kind of risky, the last irritating if we choose to tolerate you. |
Your comment is not only offensive, it contains multiple logical fallacies. Then again, I wrote mine informally too.
The question is what are the other legal options. Business visa has been covered. I'll look into the internship visas and report back.
I stopped reading your reply when I got to the quote above. I'm looking for the regulations as to what's legal, not loopholes. The only "loophole" is if a crime is committed by someone with enough power to make it so. For foreigners, it bodes well to know your legal options. Mostly in the metro cities of culture and industry, I meet people who conduct business for money, bouncing between China and abroad. It is legal. They earn more than teachers. They live a better lifestyle but lack a long-term presence.
The Z is long-term and includes residency. Business visas are very short term. Internships can be paid but involve less pay. Please stick to the topic. What are your working options? What defines those options? |
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Piper2
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
| Piper2 wrote: |
Is this an academic exercise, or are you seriously trying to find loopholes in Chinese visa regulations, or are you trolling? One seems kind of pointless, another kind of risky, the last irritating if we choose to tolerate you. |
Your comment is not only offensive, it contains multiple logical fallacies. Then again, I wrote mine informally too.
The question is what are the other legal options. Business visa has been covered. I'll look into the internship visas and report back.
I stopped reading your reply when I got to the quote above. I'm looking for the regulations as to what's legal, not loopholes. The only "loophole" is if a crime is committed by someone with enough power to make it so. For foreigners, it bodes well to know your legal options. Mostly in the metro cities of culture and industry, I meet people who conduct business for money, bouncing between China and abroad. It is legal. They earn more than teachers. They live a better lifestyle but lack a long-term presence.
The Z is long-term and includes residency. Business visas are very short term. Internships can be paid but involve less pay. Please stick to the topic. What are your working options? What defines those options? |
I think you are trolling. I am not going to waste any more of my time posting on this thread. |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kev7161 wrote: |
| Also, I'd like to throw in that working on an F-visa for 3 or 4 weeks at a summer camp is a lot different than working year round with it. Not saying it's any more "legal" to use it for summer camp work, but if and when someone were to catch wind of it, your job is nearly over anyway. I'd imagine, of course, if you DID get caught doing summer work on the wrong visa, the consequences would probably be the same as if you were to get caught any other time of the year. |
Fully agree. The only time I see people not worrying about it is when it's coming from powerful people.
But what interests me at this point are the options. There are options. For me, at this point, doing business on an F is better than digging in long term. It's legal if you follow the rules. Until now, I didn't know it's less than three months, no contract. That's perfect for me. Or an internship.
I'm scratching my head at people who say legal is Z visa or nothing.
My friends replied. When they're at a school like BeiDa and Tsinghua longterm, they get a Z. But when they're showing up to give lectures short term, they get a business visa. In all cases of those I know, BeiDa and Tsinghua provide them a similar work schedule to their universities in USA. You CAN teach legally on business visas, just not for three months. And, technically, not with a contract... though I did not ask about contracts and F. This legal, short term cooperation is called 'visiting scholar' , 'visiting lecturer, ' or 'visiting researcher.'
Last edited by Riff Raff on Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think most people are missing a major term of visa classification. An F visa is for business, not work. There's a difference. (Jump on that, Trollsters.)
| Quote: |
| F allows you to do business, lectures, and training. |
While these activities are work, the difference between working on an F and a Z has nothing to do with the length of a contract, it's how and where you are being paid. If my IBM boss in Podunk sends me to China to train engineers and I am getting paid by the Podunk office then I can legally 'work' on an F visa.
If the same boss tells me to take the summer off, sign a short-term contract with the TangShan IBM contractor to train his workers, and get paid by that Chinese firm then I need a Z visa.
Working legally on an F depends on who my contract is with and who pays me. F visas are for visiting lecturers and trainers who are not contracted with Chinese companies.
Is teaching on an F while being paid by a local school technically legal? Definitely not.
Do schools use this as a loophole? Most definitely yes.
Does the school get in trouble if they are caught? Sometimes.
Does the teacher get in trouble if they are caught? Always.
Last edited by JamesD on Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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