Job Discussion Forums

[arioch36]

So hopefully we have concluded that only scum take advantage of their student-teacher relationship, and there are scum in every country.
But how young is too young? I'm not just trolling, because I know two girls who are both wonderful, with wonderful spirits, and mature in action. But yet, if I was in AMerica, I would probably consider them too young, but I feel most girls in America are usually immature until later in life.
I am talking about a serious relationship. Those people who are just trying to land a babe don't care. Ah, but the bible says the heart is deceitfully wicked above all else. So I am not sure.
My age? Well this is China, so I guess you can ask. Arioch 36 was when I joined here a couple of years ago, so you can gues, I think? How young is to young? 35? 30? 25? 20? 15? ( Don't laugh. One of the heros of China had a second wife who was only 15 when he was 40...they lived together for the rest of his life, and she never regretted it.
(Oh, I have met a nice 40 yr old, so I have nothing against an older woman, especially in America)

[Paul G]

Chris:

It's great that you are in love! But two girls? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

All kidding aside, who, but you, is to say if a girl is too young. There is a point where you have use common sense and think about the practical side of things. (This would apply to, say, the fifteen and twenty-year-olds.) Young girls are easily infatuated, and just as easily disillusioned. When thinking in the long term, you want to be sure that you are more than just a passing fancy to her.

It is probably also wise to give the girl the "visa test". Suggest to her that you may want to remain in China for the rest of your life and that you wouldn't want her moving to the US. See how she reacts and if her interest wanes.

Then you need to give her the "get rich quick" test. Make sure you tell her that you and your family are dirt poor and that the little money you do make, over and above your normal living expenses, goes to pay your mothers hospital bills but that you should have them paid off in 20 years or so. See if her interest in you wanes.

I married one of the nicest, sweetest Chinese girls you could ever hope to meet. Two weeks after she got her green card, she told me she wanted a divorce....and $300,000 as a property settlement.

I have since come to find out that this is quite a common occurrance. I don't want to discourage you. Just a little "Caveat Emptor". Take a good look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, "Why would this girl be interested in me?" I'm not talking about just your physical appearance. I've seen your picture and you are a nice looking guy. What I am talking about is look at yourself and look at her and seriously question if the two of you have enough in common that there is a legitimate reason for you to be together.

Another thing that you have to consider is "face". Sure, you run into "face" problems all the time in China. But try living with it. Are you sure that you can live with someone who can never be wrong about anything simply because to be wrong would be to lose "face"? I mean, if she burns the house down and you tell her that it was probably because she made a bonfire in the livingroom, she will make your life hell rather than admit that her actions could have been the cause. Ask her to please keep the screen door closed so that flies don't come in and she will not only make sure that the screen door is always open but she will blame the flies on you. I'm serious, Chris. The "face" thing is absurd and, when you are trying to teach your honey about a new culture and try to explain to her why she should or shouldn't do something one way or another, you are going to run into all kinds of problems because to agree to change would be to admit that the old ways are wrong and to admit that you did something wrong means that you lose "face".

Age is the least of your problems. You are intelligent enough and moral enough to make your own decision about age. It's up to you to decide what is right and wrong in that regard. As the bard wrote, "But above all, to thine own self be true. And it will follow as night unto day that you can be false to no man."

Good luck!

Paul

[Seth]

As the late, great Bob Marley sang, 'No woman, no cry.' I generally steer clear of Chinese woman. Sure, they can be very beautiful, charming, intelligent, and much more flattering to our egos than is necessary! After about the 100th time someone says 'you are very handsome!' the warm fuzzy feeling just kind of goes away. As a 26 year old blond, blue eyed male, who's not too bad looking if I may say so myself, I sometimes get a lot of attention. While most women around here are afraid to talk to me or are afraid to be seen in public with me for fear of being labeled a prostitute, I can hear what they say about me in Chinese. I hear a lot of 'they have good universities in the US' or 'foreign countries are rich, you would have a good life.' Sometimes I feel like a walking passport. Come ride the gravy train, ladies! Final destination, laowai paradise, tai hao le! When I visited Xi'an I got 6 phone numbers in 3 days, for doing nothing but wandering around.
Case in point: the English chap who had to leave my school about a month ago had a Chinese girlfriend, and he was sure she was madly in love with him. She had asperations to study in Belgium, as many Chinese do for some reason I haven't figured out yet. He had to leave as his mother was deathly ill. Now that he's gone, she's been calling me a lot, acting the same way for me that she did for him. I don't trust her at all. Guard your heart.

[Roger]

Chris,


listen to Paul! He has put his case forcefully, yet without making scathing remarks about Chinese chicks! I marvel at Paul's magnanimity ("great soul" in Latin!) because it has happened very recently and he told me so a short while back!

Actually, no one can put it more soberly, yet more eloquently than Paul did! Look at how he presented the problem of "losing face"!
This is a childish attitude of Chinese, really! Whenever something goes wrong they are never to blame. Yet they are the first to point an accusing finger. The last governor of Hong Kong pointed out that the Chinese have to learn that others have face too! They are not likely to absorb that wisdom because they always feel superior. In CHinese society, anyone with power has the right to shame others, but never the other way around.

In a marriage, there inevitably crop up questions about power. In my opinion, Chinese girls have a very strong tendency to control men via the money and the property the man adds to their household.
The CHinese mind is rather backward in that it assumes that the man automatically is the provider of everything. It squares with the fact that boys are still more welcomed than girls are by Chinese parents! A girl literally is a burden - for the parents who have to feed her, and for her husband who has to look after her every interest. It is interesting to note that lots of HK men feel their local wives or girlfriends cost them too much in terms of maintenance, si they choose to get a mainland wife - who costs too, but considerably less so!
Sounds like sour grapes or retro machismo thoughts, but it ain't!
In my numerous relationships with some dame or other from China, another character trait has surfaced every time: They are terribly vindictive!
A Chinese friend of mine divorced his wife of 10 years. For 6 or 7 years, they were more like two strangers cohabiting in the same flat but using separate bedrooms! I saw it as I was a frequent visitor to their home. THey had a lovely daughter who was under constant care of her father rather than her mother.
The man had bought the flat off our school at a bargain price. His wife was making 3000 RMB a month, he only 2500 (I made 3000 at the same school). The flat had been bought by him, using his own savings of 40'000!
A divorce can easily be obtained IF BOTH PARTIES agree! If not, no court will not grant a divorce! My friend had to bribe his freedom by offering her 40'000 in a cash settlement, which means that he has to support his ex-wife for years to come!
A few months ago, she abducted their child - to extract more money from him! I don't know if the police will be of any use!
Every time, a relationship with a girl broke up, my ex would rubbish my home. First thing they all did was to try to find valuables hidden in clothes or under mattresses! Every time, I lost something or other of pecuniary value, preferably money, of course.
And, every time they tore up pictures!

I don't know how this behavioral trait squares with your observation that they are "mature"!

All I can say is: Exercise maximum circumspection!

As Paul said: If they are willing to share their life with you in CHINA for the rest of your days, then it might be serious!

Most girls marry your passport, money and a green card!

[Bill Shagley]

That is some scary stuff, Roger. I have been warned about some Chinese girls. Strangely enough, it was my Chinese girlfriend who warned me. One day, she was being even more possessive than usual and I asked her why. She said that another Chinese girl had paid me a little bit too much attention and she was unhappy about this. It all seemed very innocent to me but she went on to tell me in detail how untrustworthy Chinese girls were. " You are a foreigner. Either she wants to practice her English with you or she wants something else. If she wants something else, it is either sexual or financial." I was stunned and naively replied " but what about simple no-strings friendly chatting". This was when I was younger and more foolish. " You have to understand that with most Chinese girls, there is an angle. In our culture it is our job to attract men and than have them provide for us." This is an almost verbatim report of what she said.
This is as close to an inside view as one can get. Anyway, I said "Ok, so what is your angle." She was very honest . She said "I want us to get married. I don't care about your country. I would prefer to stay in China. I don't care about money....you are an ESL teacher and there are better catches. I just want us to get married."
This honesty proved to be quite refreshing. We will get married next year. I have known her for more that two years now.
I just hope that she is as nice after the marriage.

[Roger]

Bill,
congratulations to you and your relationship! I should hasten to add that, luckily, I do know a number of happily-married couples, the majority of whom are bi-national! In most cases, the foreign husband or wife wants to stay put in China.

However, it is a fact readily observable that Americans seem to attract the wrong type of girl more often than others.
It is not their fault - it is the image of their country!

[eric the king]

Paul

A lot of resepct to you for remaining so rational after what must have been a terrible experience. Hard not to turn bitter after something like that.

I agree totally with what has been posted and think it is especially relevant when there is a large age gap. You have to remain realistic and honest to yourself. Like asking why this beautiful 20 year old is fascinated with me, a very average looking 35 year old? Would this same person even give me a second look were we in the US, Uk or wherever? Would she even look at me twice were it not for the fact that I have a foreign passport? Time to get real - this is marriage we are talking about.

It must be said though that there are many exceptions to this generalisation and many happy marriages are made accross the cultural divide. The age divide i am less sure of - I think it is asking for trouble once h=you are talking of a more than ten-year gap. At the risk of sounding cynical, there has to be somethng more going on....

[arioch36]

Well thanx, all...but no one ansewered the question. Are you sure you are not all just Chinese students in disguise. Women...what do you think?
Actually, you know, now that I'm getting pretty old (approaching 40 after all).
I know the horror stories you guys have told. I have had many Chinese friends for over five years. I told Kvido he didn't know what he was talking about when he said Chinese women are so submissive. I also know personally of good situations. Doesn't matter, because of my self-imposed ignorance, Chinese/ French/American, no difference. I know one American girl with a wonderful spirit, and two Chinese girls with wonderful spirits. I'm not a great Christian, but if you have ever met a true christian girl with the Spirit of God, you would know exactly what I mean (of course, this is pretty rare everywhere
Oh, and sorry for mentioning God in a positive way. Don't want to be treated like a backpacker or anything.
Seriously, girls teaching in China...your opinion...come on, how young is too young? Why?

[xiaoyu]

hey! whatever you decide to do... just some things that i would keep in mind, outside of the other advice that has been given to you by the other posters (all of which is very valuable and pertinent)... however, as a woman we get to see some things and hear some things about chinese women that men might miss.... first, while they might quite often act very mature and ready to get married, or into a serious relationship, often this is not the case.... their idea of what is required of them in society will often determine their actions around men, especially foreign men... i found this especially true of those who were in their early to mid 20s.... one of my better students complained to me once about how a chinese man was acting toward her and that she didn't want to get involved with him.... i asked her why she acted the way she did around him (the common way of chinese "flirting") if she wasn't interested in him ... her reply was that he was a nice guy with good standing and a good job and her family liked him..... draw your own conclusions there.... with a foreigner it is different.... i had one friend ( a student of a fellow teacher) who started dating a teacher from a different school who i knew quiet well , though she did not know it... she was having trouble with her family, as they didn't like the foreigner aspect (even though he spoke chinese fluently and was a great guy), and because her scores werent' gonig to be good enough to get her abroad..... they ended up dating for a long while until i dropped a line in the teacher's ear about how she was telling me that she would be returning with him and i should come and visit her.... he wasn't thinking marriage at all... and she was dating a chinese guy on the side to make her family happy..... on the other hand, i know of a girl who fell in love with a teacher who is approximately 15 yrs older than she and they have been together for a long time, not getting married but living together.... however, she is of an age where it is more allowed by her family (30 yrs) and has been in relationshilps before.... in my experience, when you meet a chinese girl who hasn't had a boyfriend or kissed a guy and is 25 yrs old and wants to enter a relationship they often do not have the emotional maturity required in a successful relationship, nor the social mobility to accomplish being married to a foreign man and staying in china.... one of my students put it like this (she had been privately dating a foreigner for 6 months).... "i love him very much and i want to be with him forever, but if i am my family will see me as a *beep* and a disgrace.... how could i face them? i would bring disgrace to my family, him and myself.... so i will end it..." she was one of my more mature students even though she was 23 yrs..... maturity varies... and she was a rarity in my experience.... i would recommend on average women who are 26 or older usually..... although there are exceptions.... good luck though... have heard it is great to be in love or on the road there!
xiaoyu

[whitjohn]

Whatever two people can offer each other is what makes a good relationship. Age should not be as important as it apparently is to some. Maturity is very often attractive to young women. Marriage and "forever" should not be the goal, rather caring and today. I have a young Chinese "girlfriend". I am happy with her and she with me.

[Kurochan]

This doesn't apply to Arioch's situation, but it does if the age gap is REALLY wide.

Remember, in China, the One Child Policy= one child for one woman policy. If a woman has a kid with a partner who is really old, then he dies and makes her a widow with a kid, her marriage prospects are pretty bleak. She may well face the rest of her life as a single mother. That's tough emotionally and financially. We all know a lot of ESL people don't have much money in the bank, so unless the husband has life insurance or something like that, she'll be faced with raising a child on one income.

There's a guy I know who is about 65 and is engaged to a Chinese girl who is around 24. He's a cool guy and I think his feelings are sincere, but he's not going to live forever. I don't know what the girl will do after he dies. I think she's trying to get a U.S. visa, but if she has his kid, she'll be a young widow/single mom in a strange country with no friends or relatives. If she stays in China and has a kid, she'll be a single mom with few marriage prospects, because most men wouldn't be interested in a woman they couldn't have a child with. I don't think this guy will be able to leave much money to provide for her after he dies because he has kids from his first marriage, so I don't know what she's going to do. If she does want to date or get married again, it will be really hard to find a partner. Maybe just divorced men who have a kid already would be interested, or guys who assume she has a lot of money because she's been married to a foreigner. Anyway, it's not a good situation for her.

[arioch36]

xiaoyu, thnax for the female perspective. You actually hit the nail on the head. Nice intelligent christian Chinese girl, she's been working for a couple years, so she is starting to experience the "real world", but her emotional, romantic, and sensual experiences are quite limited from a western perspective, especially from someone who has had the kind of background I had. Well who knows, but it your post did help me define my thoughts more,

thanx

Chris in henan

[scoobydo]

deleted

[Egas]

Some real horror stories here. I feel for the posters. I have dated a few girls in China and Taiwan, and two seriously. From a Western perspective they can seem incredibly immature, manipulative and "sulky". But they have their good points. The two girls I dated are not close to their families, somewhat of a rarity in China, so I didn't have the family pressure thing. I am almost 37 and my current girlfriend just shy of 28. Actually, she exhibits maturity beyond her years at times. She has a lot of guts. She left her family at the age of 23, going to Beijing from a small country town. Within a day she had an office job, and within two days was told by the boss to sleep with him or be fired. Not unusual for the country girls here, so I'm told. Despite her naivety (never having had a boyfriend) she promptly left that job.

She is a university graduate, and quite a smart girl. She is tough-minded and has good business sense. Unlike other Chinese girls she is not that keen to leave China. She knows that with her skills and abilities she has good prospects here, but in Australia (my country) she will have a tough time with employment.

Yes, Chinese girls demand attention, The degree of attention demanded is directly proportional to the beauty of the women. Beauty gives them leverage and social power, at least while it lasts. I'm a really busy guy. I work and study and write books. My girlfriend is rather unreasonable about my time. She expects me to spend half of every day with her, and still bring home big bucks. Sorry, babe, but you can't have it all!

Marriage is still very much a cherished tradition in China (we've trashed it in the west). So I find my girl is constantly on me about getting married. I tell her that most people in the west spend at least a year or two together before they commit to marriage (we've been together almost a year). She doesn't seem to understand the logic of this.

I also find honesty a problem. Chinese people lie like the truth is out of fashion. I don't tell my girl sweet lies to keep her happy. Most Chinese guys will lie all day and night to their girls about their commitment and love, regardless of the truth. I just can't do it. I just tell her the truth – that I want to get married, but am not totally sure just yet. But I have to say in her defense, she is a pretty honest person.

Co-dependence is another problem. I have studied various spiritual philosophies and disciplines, and have learnt that people need to set boundaries with each other, and to learn to stand on their own two feet. This doesn't seem to make much sense to my girl. The Chinese still have a very romantic idea of love, where the knight in shining armor (rich, handsome, a non-KTV attendee, bringing home loads of cash from a three hour work day) sweeps the girl off her feet and never puts her back down again. I notice in the public pools in Taiwan the girls are always riding on their boyfriends’ backs in the pool. This is pretty much a metaphor of Chinese male-female relationships. The man carries the woman. I tell my girl that we are equals and that I will not take responsibility for her life. She tells me she does not want to be equal. So much for women's lib in China!

The one thing that I really like about Chinese women, is that they do not beat up on men as much as western women do (generalizing here, I know) The media here hasn’t yet caught on to the pervasive man-bashing that has all but destroyed male empowerment (define it as you will) in the west. I noticed a recent survey in an Australian newspaper asked the question “Who has the upper hand in society, men or women?” About 5000 people responded. 48% said women had the upper hand, 7% (yes, “seven”) said men had the upper hand, and the rest said it was equal or were undecided. 60 000 males called the male help line in Australia last year. No wonder guys are willing to put up with the problems involved with having a Chinese girlfriend.

[eric the king]

Kurochan - he's 65 and she's 24 and you 'think' its about his visa. Can't see it being about much else.

Some good posts here but slightly overdoing the passive female bit. Recent survey published in beijing shows a real independent streak growing among young Chinese girls. And in general, divorce is up (changes to the law have really unlocked bad marriages for women). I have a Chinese wife who is neither a liar, submissive, greedy with my time or money (what money?) or interested in any visa benefits she may gain from me. Or maybe I am victim to an elaborate dupe? Nah!

Look, you either know or you don't. If you get the feeling something is not right, your'e probably right. If you are naive enough to kid yourself that all is sweet then you need to grow up. Apply the same standards you would in the west and don't be fooled by that pretty face!

And as for all this "Chinese girls don't like to say 'I love you' so if they do they are lying' - what a crock of shite. Who decided on that particular stereotype? I see next to nothing different between my wife and my old western girlfriends. She's caring, funny, a bit of a cow at times, and we have loads in common. Basis of a good marriage as I see it. But then maybe I have just been lucky. Or am not as stupid as some others.

Chinese girls are not from venus! I don't know where you are all meeting these women but I suggest you try somewhere new. There are real people out there....