Job Discussion Forums

[AjarnIam]

Just curious if other people have general frustrations working with non native English teachers. My superiors are all non native English, many of whom have Phd's in English. (from local universities?...of course!!) The frustrating part isn't so much their education (although they do love to throw their Phd cards out regularly) but how poorly they understand this language. I've made a point of asking students who they prefer having as English teachers, native English or non-native. The high achievers definitely see an advantage to having a native English teacher, however the low level learners prefer non-native. Why? Where I work, non-native teachers tend to teach English to students in their L1, so it ends up being a translation class. The low level learners love it, because there's no speaking exercises, no listening exercises, no reading, only English grammar taught in their L1....and do the student pass?...of course they do! So as this process continues over a few years, I end up trying to deal with some of these students in ESP courses in their fourth year of university, assuming that by 4th year they should have a basic understanding of the 4 language skills.... not even close...

That's my gripe of the day...I guess these English scholars pay my salary, so I should just keep my mouth shut..right?

[tudodude]

I hear ya mate. But I have worked with some good ones too.

[AjarnIam]

True true...the glass is 1/2 empty today...

[spiral78]

Actually, most of my work colleagues here in the Netherlands are non-native speakers. We don't work with low level learners, though....

I think that research shows (and my personal experience bears out) that non-native teachers tend to focus much more highly on structure - and errors. It seems easier for native speakers to distinguish between errors that impact meaning (and have to be addressed) and those that are merely annoying or cosmetic, and can possibly be postponed until more basic stuff has been mastered.

Overall, papers marked by our non-native teachers tend to focus far more on details like article use or word form disagreement, and far less on the bigger issues of content, organisation, and style/tone - and comprehensibility.

Yeah - it can be frustrating sometimes. I guess.

[johnslat]

Dear spiral78,

Isn't there some sort of rubric for marking writing papers. one that distinguishes between "Mechanics" and "Content," and assigns a percentage for how much each area is allotted on the final grade (e.g. 70/30, with the 70% being for content?)

Regards,
John

[tomstone]

Yes, that's the problem with the students in my classes. I teach second year college English, ALL of my students are English majors and some of them can't say anything in English unless they've memorized it or are reading it. They read fairly well, but they don't understand what they are reading. Your comment about the non-native teachers translating for them is right to the point. The teachers have them memorize this "noise" and tell them that "this means THIS" (translated into L1). So I hear a response to my question "How are you"? as "finethankyou" or "finethankyouandyou", but they have NO idea what they are saying. The students who respond with the second answer ("finethankyouandyou") know that I will then make another "noise", but they don't know what they have said nor do they know what I have said. It's a mess.

[spiral78]

Yes, but the bottom line for mechanics is comprehensibility. And that's what we have perennial problems communicating to the non-native English speaking markers.

Further, it's not just 'mechanics,' but organisation, format, citation and referencing...and content.

It's just difficult for many non-native speakers to see the distinction between 'acceptable' and 'non-acceptable' errors at any given level (so research and my personal experience says).

[spiral78]

The teachers have them memorize this "noise" and tell them that "this means THIS" (translated into L1). So I hear a response to my question "How are you"? as "finethankyou" or "finethankyouandyou", but they have NO idea what they are saying. The students who respond with the second answer ("finethankyouandyou") know that I will then make another "noise", but they don't know what they have said nor do they know what I have said. It's a mess.

The tried-and-true 'direct' method. Berlitz lovezit

[AjarnIam]

What amazes me is the students ability to memorize long and detailed information and then stand up in front of the class and present it without cue cards, and to the average listener they must sound perfect, but your right, they have no idea what they are saying. This is easily tested by asking them the simplest question about their presentation...and you get a blank look...as if to say...oooops I didn't rehearse that... I've given up on role plays unless they are impromptu.

[spiral78]

Interesting. It's also true in some service professions. For example, I know Europeans who work as waiters, or bank staff, or hotel staff, or air traffic controllers. Their English is quite good, so long as they are on topic.

Try to have a conversation about something unrelated to their work....and the facade quickly crumbles.

[nickpellatt]

Im only frustrated by not working with any teachers I can really learn from. People who know how to teach an aspect of the present perfect, who understand how to tackle L1 issues etc etc. Native or non-native isnt that important, anyone who understands and can help would be enough!

[Master Shake]

[Sashadroogie]

I hear what you are saying about non-native teachers. Sometimes their English just isn't up to snuff. Working at the moment with a few local 'team'-teachers whom I have never met, presumably because they realise that they are lacking linguistically.

However, the flip side of this is that there are plenty of fantastic non-native teachers out there and I sometimes wonder how they manage to tolerate the sandal-clad surfer dudes who waltz into their schools, sans qualification etc., and who then proceed to diss the local teachers. (Not suggesting that anyone on this thread has done that.) Personally, if I had had to spend the last ten to fifteen odd years studying a language to the level where I was good enough to get a DELTA or MA to teach it to other non-natives, then I have to say I'd be just a smidgen on the resentful side of things when confronted with a clueless newbie know-all, regardless of his/her native-speaking status.

Sadly, I have witnessed, as I'm sure we all have, scenes of incredible arrogance on both sides. But I'd say, for the most part, that there are far more damaging 'native' teachers in the EFL world than native ones... Just my experience....maybe I'm wrong...

[AjarnIam]

[quote= there are far more damaging 'native' teachers in the EFL world than native ones...[/quote]

Agree with you 100%

[Sansibar1]