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pete205
Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: Salary expectations |
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Hi,
There seems to be an incredible range of salaries being offered online for ESL positions in China. I have a feeling that a lot of these are marketed at gap-year types who aren't too salary-sensitive. Is this the case?
I was wondering if an ESL veteren could 'evaluate' and give me an idea of what I should ask for as I am just about to (attempt to) enter the industry.
Anyway, here is a quick profile:
- MSci (4-year degree) in Physics from respected UK Uni.
- No teaching experience with the exception of 40ish hours as a private tutor as an exchange student in Spain.
- Strong academic record, if that counts for anything.
I am hoping to find a position in Shenzhen or Beijing. Could anyone tell me what I can expect salary-wise in these locations? Furthermore, if anyone has any advice they would like to share I'd be extremely grateful.
Cheers |
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thefuzz
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 271
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Since you have zero work experience don't count on getting a high salary right from the start. You should also think of investing in a teaching certificate (a CELTA or Trinity TESOL would be ideal) which will help you land better jobs. But without any experience and teaching credentials you'll first have to start at the bottom of the barrel and scratch your way up. |
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jiangsu
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Normally, I would concur.
But Physics teachers are as in demand in China as they are anywhere else. I recently saw a posted job looking for Maths and Science teachers in Changzhou, paying 12000RMB-16000RMB dependent upon qualifications. That is an excellent salary in a city such as Changzhou.
Which by the way is a nice enough city with a lovely temple and park and a Tesco and some other Western stuff if you miss home and just around an hour from Shanghai if you want to see the big city. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I second the vote for Changzhou. I have never lived there, but my wife is from there and I've been there many times. It is a large enough city, several million peope and lots of western amenities, but retains a "real China" feel. It is also far, far cheaper than Beijing and Shanghai. Also extremely convenient location-wise as it is right between Shanghai and Nanjing. Also convenient access to other nice cities such as Suzhou and Wuxi. |
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mat chen
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 494
Location: xiangtan hunan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Expect to be burned at the end. |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Salary expectations |
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| pete205 wrote: |
| There seems to be an incredible range of salaries being offered online for ESL positions in China. I have a feeling that a lot of these are marketed at gap-year types who aren't too salary-sensitive. Is this the case? |
It's really a case of the lower salaries being marketed at those who have no previous teaching experience in China and/or cannot offer any specialist subject like physics, while the higher ones (at least those openly advertised) are usually aimed at those who may have qualifications in specialist subjects and have some teaching experience already, especially in state secondary schools.
| pete205 wrote: |
| MSci (4-year degree) in Physics from respected UK Uni. |
It wouldn't happen to be UCL, would it?! 
| pete205 wrote: |
| No teaching experience with the exception of 40ish hours as a private tutor as an exchange student in Spain. |
You'd still be treated as if you'd done no hours at all if you wanted to teach anyone other than private students in China.
| pete205 wrote: |
| Strong academic record, if that counts for anything. |
We do have two Ph.D. holders teaching "A"-level at the private education training centre that I have been working on behalf of for nearly five whole years now.
I hold three master's degrees myself, namely an MBA (which I got two years before first coming to China) and two master's degrees in education (which I have gained by studying through the Open University during my time here); in addition, I also hold Qualified Teacher Status for the secondary school sector in England and Wales (to teach science, interestingly enough).
Our academic principal also holds three master's degrees, all of which are, like mine, postgraduate (unlike an MSci).
| pete205 wrote: |
| I am hoping to find a position in Shenzhen or Beijing. Could anyone tell me what I can expect salary-wise in these locations? |
Again, it depends upon the kind of institution you approach - whether it's a private chain language school like EF English First or else the kind of institution which, like the one I work for, specifically prepares students to become under- or postgraduates in Anglophone countries. Needless to say, the latter kind of institution usually commands much higher salaries than the former!
| pete205 wrote: |
| Furthermore, if anyone has any advice they would like to share I'd be extremely grateful. |
You could try your hand at teaching physics at an international school in China, though it would not hurt to try your hand at gaining a PGCE with a specialism in physics first.
You could carry way more clout with such a teaching qualification than without one, although I am in no way suggesting that it would be impossible to get a job teaching at such a school, since EFL jobs are usually available there.
However, being able to teach physics would usually command a higher salary than just teaching English as a foreign language. |
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Steinmann
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Location: In the frozen north
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thefuzz wrote: |
| You should also think of investing in a teaching certificate (a CELTA or Trinity TESOL would be ideal) which will help you land better jobs. But without any experience and teaching credentials you'll first have to start at the bottom of the barrel and scratch your way up. |
If the applicant has no TEFL but is a certified teacher in his home country, then might he expect to command even a slightly higher salary? |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Steinmann wrote: |
If the applicant has no TEFL but is a certified teacher in his home country, then might he expect to command even a slightly higher salary? |
I would certainly think so.
However, the OP doesnt appear to have QTS, and so the above doesnt apply (regardless of how true this statement may be). I would assume other posts that relate towards teaching a science as a subject rather than teaching English may also not be relevant. Im not 100% sure, and of course there will be exceptions, but normally posts that ask for teachers of subjects other than English, also normally expect teachers to be experienced and hold suitable qualifications to teach said subjects.
Whilst having a Masters is desirable in some countries ... I dont think it carries much weight in the majority of China jobs, especially at the entry level which I would pretty much see the OP being. Experience, teaching qualifications AND a Masters might lead to some pretty tasty jobs, with packages to match, but realistically, I think the OP will be looking at entry level jobs with entry level wages.
I think the Masters may allow him to climb the ladder faster, but I dont see it placing him any higher on it than the average newbie. |
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A man called Roger
Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| I think the Masters may allow him to climb the ladder faster |
What ladder - has anybody noticed a career ladder in a normal Chinese EFL job?????
I think Nick is confusing the concept of profession career, as in working your way up within through the ranks of an employer - with that of being in China, better understanding the job market, forming a network, being better prepared to make a move when you discover the better paying positions or having the chance to try your hand freelancing - which means that any major changes with position and pay - your China FT 'career' - is something to do with taking on a new job rather than being achieved through the same employer.
Where a masters or any higher than normal degree certificates could come of use is gaining employment in the more interesting jobs - those that have better more professional set-ups, which include well-defined goals- employers that are looking for serious teachers. This work usually excludes the normal garbage of language mill and 2nd/3rd tier college employment - and in the best jobs also offers a better than average pay.
For those who are certified teachers - then of course there are international schools - being able to take a job at one of schools means you'll land on a whole different planet of employment . |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| A man called Roger wrote: |
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| I think the Masters may allow him to climb the ladder faster |
What ladder - has anybody noticed a career ladder in a normal Chinese EFL job????? |
i think it's a two rung ladder - fired and not fired |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| A man called Roger wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think the Masters may allow him to climb the ladder faster |
What ladder - has anybody noticed a career ladder in a normal Chinese EFL job????? |
i think it's a two rung ladder - fired and not fired |
You are dead right - a ladder in a room with an extremely low ceiling!  |
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A man called Roger
Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:53 am Post subject: |
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LangGuTou wrote:
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| Quote: |
| Quote: |
The Ever-changing Cleric wrote:
A man called Roger wrote:
Quote:
I think the Masters may allow him to climb the ladder faster
What ladder - has anybody noticed a career ladder in a normal Chinese EFL job????? |
i think it's a two rung ladder - fired and not fired Laughing
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You are dead right - a ladder in a room with an extremely low ceiling! Wink |
Since the ladder is nearly non-existent - unless your major interest is teaching for low wages in a job that although provides for a comfortable every-day life but will hardly do anything for building the foundations of a long-term future - well I'd make sure FT's who plan to do China long-term quickly find specific interests outside of teaching that will make their stay an interesting and worthwhile proposition.
Whatever it is - girls, booze, martial arts, travel, language, opening a business etc etc - these are the factors that which I estimate 90% of time, make people stay in China. For the young person - certain China employment can be part of a career building opportunity, if it goes hand in hand with qualification - but I'm sure in 99% of the cases, that for the career to develop, you'd have to move away from China.
OP - come to China for the experience - If you're looking for a career in teaching a year or two out here in one of the better jobs could be used as stepping stone to something else during that time you decide to move on - but don't expect too much career challenge if you decide to stay in-country - your long-term professional expertise will be probably get more homed into finding better wage opportunities rather than climbing any leadership rank ladder |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Career and wage opportunities in the one job |
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| A man called Roger wrote: |
| Whatever it is - girls, booze, martial arts, travel, language, opening a business etc etc - these are the factors that which I estimate 90% of time, make people stay in China. |
In my case, it was getting married to a local lady who is now the mother of our two children, and, later on, studying for and gaining two master's degrees in education with the Open University (U.K.) by online/distance study!
| A man called Roger wrote: |
| For the young person - certain China employment can be part of a career building opportunity, if it goes hand in hand with qualification - but I'm sure in 99% of the cases, that for the career to develop, you'd have to move away from China. |
In my case, I was extremely lucky to land my present job in January '05 at a private education training centre which (by now) offers "A"-levels as well as its long-established pre-bachelor's and pre-master's programmes. Hence, I certainly regard it as a career-building opportunity since I have been here nearly five whole years and I intend staying here for a few more.
| A man called Roger wrote: |
| (...) your long-term professional expertise will be probably get more homed into finding better wage opportunities rather than climbing any leadership rank ladder. |
Where I am now is the best wage opportunity that I have had in my (so far) eight-year teaching career in China, and that is one of the main reasons why I have stayed so long and am intending to stay longer. In any case, it really is a good place to work, as far as I am concerned.
As for the hierarchy, I liken it to a witch's hat: the academic principal sits on its apex (ouch!) and everybody else is seated on the brim of the hat. Still, with about 20 expatriates teaching there and with staff turnover being extremely low (one guy who teaches "A"-level physics is now in his eighth year there!), nobody is complaining about so-called lack of advancement opportunities (at least nobody that I know of!)! |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| A man called Roger wrote: |
I think Nick is confusing the concept of profession career, as in working your way up within through the ranks of an employer - with that of being in China, better understanding the job market, forming a network, being better prepared to make a move when you discover the better paying positions
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Im easily confused  and yes, you are correct.
I was just trying to give a more accurate answer to the original question posed by the OP, who is asking along the lines of what level he is likely to start at. On the information given ... I think its fair to say he will start at the bottom. Of course, I could be wrong but there is already so much talk about teaching other subjects, international schools and the nice sounding job that Mr Crossley has.
None of these jobs are likely to be accessible to someone with zero China experience or contacts, no teaching experience, and no teaching qualifications. What I have suggested is the OP will probably have to take an entry level position and all that entails, and then the benefit of experience, contacts AND the MSc will surely put him in a stronger position to find a better job in the future. Personally ... I think all the thread talk about other positions arent all that realistic at this moment in time.
Not that it really matters anyway ... the OP has dropped out of the thread and its just us shooting the breeze now  |
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pete205
Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Not that it really matters anyway ... the OP has dropped out of the thread and its just us shooting the breeze no |
Not quite, I was away on Saturday,  .
Wow, thanks for all the responses!
The idea of teaching physics is certainly tempting from a salary point of view but I think I've had my fill of physics to last a lifetime.
| Quote: |
| It wouldn't happen to be UCL, would it? |
Very close, Imperial College .
| Quote: |
| What ladder - has anybody noticed a career ladder in a normal Chinese EFL job |
ha. I'm not too worried about climbing any ladders. I just want to get out of Europe for a couple of years and get out of my comfort zone and try something new. I've always been interested in China and teaching is certainly an idea that scares me. I will probably try to get a job in software development or do a Masters when/if I get back.
There seems to be a a lot of support for Changzhou which I understand is in a Wu speaking region. I really want to learn passable Mandarin while I'm in China. Do you know if I will be able to practice on the Changzhou populace or if they generally do not speak Mandarin? |
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