|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Dray
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 31
Location: England
|
 Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: How much difference do teachers actually make? |
 |
|
Regarding teaching English to adults: I have worked at schools in various countries. Often in adult classes, students would arrive at classes tired (often late) after work, most of them not having done any homework which was set, and not having made much effort to improve their English outside of class. There were, however, a few students who were incredibly motivated. They did plenty of extra work outside of class and really wanted to learn English.
I would suggest that this last group will improve at English and the first group will not. And I would suggest that that the last group will make progress because of their own efforts, not because of the teacher. In fact, in group lessons, I don't think the good students get that much benefit from the teacher. A little, but not a great deal.
I'm not saying I don't try to be a good teacher, because I do. I just think that, with adults, the learning of a language is much more down to the student than the teacher. In TEFL, there is a whole industry of books and certifications (DELTA) surrounding teacher development. And the TEFL industry sells the idea to students that buying lessons with a teacher will improve their English. But, when it comes to learning a language, I think effective learning is down to the learner much more than any teacher.
What do you think: how much difference do teachers actually make when it comes to language education with adults? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TwinCentre
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 273
Location: Mokotow
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Who knows? But the truth is probably that teachers facilitate 'learning' and motivate. So teachers help a bit. But don't forget that EFL is not a content based subject, in other words, you are not passing on knowledge, rather creating an environment in which students can discover language and develop their language skills. So, it's not like teaching quantum mechanics or indeed the piano. That is why TEFL teachers are paid so poorly.
Could the students teach themselves English? Sure.
Could they be bothered? No, the majority need 'motivation', that is why they go to a teacher. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| But the truth is probably that teachers facilitate 'learning' and motivate |
Reminds me of my time in Kazakhstan when all the trainers were to be referred to as 'facilitators'. imo, it was ridiculous to spend time deciding what to call an instructor. what the feck did it matter ? did it change anything ? did the students benefit from the change ? did anyone ?
laughable, really.
in respone to the OP's query, i think we make a hell of a lot of difference. actually, the degree of appreciation you get from students is somewhat of an indicator. We had one trainee who, after finding out he scored a merit in PET, was nearly in tears of gratitude. It was, frankly, pretty uncomfortable for us.
Agreed, we help to motivate students in the learning process but that's not all.
where i am now, imo the majority of the employees wouldn't be a fraction as competent and 'qualified' at communicating in english had they not spent time in our classrooms.
best
basil  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I do think a lot of it depends on the student
The teacher can go over the grammar, vocab, present them with texts, listening, etc, but if they don't study or make time, They cant' learn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nabby Adams
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 215
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If teachers make such a big difference then why can the average kid in Bali who has never had an English class speak better English than the average Japanese kid in Tokyo who has studied English for 6 years every day with expensive professional teachers?
There are those that can pick up a second language and those that can't. I doubt whether having a teacher makes any real difference. The students motivation counts far more than having a person tell them to open their book to page 11. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| If teachers make such a big difference then why can the average kid in Bali who has never had an English class speak better English than the average Japanese kid in Tokyo |
i thought we were discussing adults; not kids who are generally able to pick up a language that much more easily.
what's more, not everyone has the kind of exposure to english as a balinese kid might have. after all, english is pretty widely used on bali; especially in the touristy places like kuta and ubud.
furthermore, imo japanese have real issues with english; their culture and own language interfere greatly. indonesians / balinese don't have such great issues.
i never had a single formal lesson in indonesian/betawi but i'd say im pretty darned good at it due to the amount of exposure i had to it and the self-motivation i had for wanting to pick it up. no teacher.
however, if we are discussing people who have limited, if any, outside exposure to english (such as the people we are dealing with in libya) then i still maintain a teacher (or facilitator, if you so wish), plays a pretty important role. it certainly is not the one and only factor but it is a factor nevertheless.
best
basil |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You cannot force somebody to learn something they don't want to. Period.
If I go to a guitar teacher and then refuse to pick up my guitar, sigh and pull a temper tantrum when I'm told to learn a scale and never ever practice it, then I won't learn it. It won't matter that I (or someone else) is paying thousands of dollars for these lessons.
The idea is that you go to a teacher when you (or somebody decides that you) want to learn something. Teachers can be motivating (if you let them), but the bottom line is that learning involves you using your brain and figuring it out. If you refuse to try (or make a deliberate attempt to not learn anything from a particular teacher), you will not succeed. You get out of life what you put into it.
Teachers give learners the opportunity to learn, but it's up to them to take advantage of that opportunity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with the general tone of the posts thus far. After another frustrating lesson with a student that refuses to understand (but still goes into a strop because I refuse to tell him what to do in his mother tongue) it's clear that student motivation has the biggest impact. I'm also teaching a beginner student who is enthusiastic, uses the language as much as possible and engages with the tasks set. It's much more pleasurable for me and I go out of my way to rearrange lessons if he's busy and to give him extra material to study outside class.
Essentially, if students don't want to learn then to hell with them. Especially adults who are apparently there out of their own free will. Kids might be a different story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gotta say, I strongly disagree with the general range of ideas here.
Sure, most students "could" learn on their own....if they knew how.
MOre than "presenting" grammar or explaining things, I find this to be the most effective and rewarding aspect of my job: helping people learn how to learn a language.
And yeah, I see results.
Teaching is hard. And the extrinsic rewards are pretty limited in a lot of cases. Can't say I see why you'd be doing it if you didn't think it made a difference.
Best,
Justin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nabby Adams
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 215
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Justin, I am really interested in what you said about teaching a person how to learn. I have seen many people teach and I don't think anybody has been doing that. Can you explain what you mean or link to where you got your ideas?
I think this is a great idea. Of course not new, but then again, most wouldn't think of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
Gotta say, I strongly disagree with the general range of ideas here.
... I find this to be the most effective and rewarding aspect of my job: helping people learn how to learn a language.
|
But with the word, 'helping' you are assuming that they WANT to learn how to learn a language, and that they will put in an effort (someone is helped along with something that they are doing or want to do)- therefore you are facilitating their learning of how to learn a language. They are taking you up on the opportunity to learn how to learn a language. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i am assuming it is given that they 'want' to learn.
if they don't 'want' to learn then there is no hope; not only in regard to learning a language but anything in life except when, perhaps, there is gun pointed at one's head. in that case, perhaps 'forced or coerced' is the correct word.
best
basil |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anyway
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 109
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I' m reminded of the quote which says something like language learning is "10% instruction and 90% acquisition". Chomsky?
Anywho, I am definitely a 'facilitator' and I do believe that 'learner efficacy' is a crucial variable. However, in my opinion, the real de-motivator is the lack of proper curriculi. Almost everywhere I've taught, the textbook (and there must be one!) IS the curriculum.
By curriculum, I mean an in-house, specific and detailed correlation between objectives, skills (and sub-skills), and activities/assessments, not something off the shelf from Pearson or Oxford Press.
Until there is a shift away from the 'time on task' paradigm towards a 'recursive & constructivist' paradigm, the majority of learners will be bored/frustrated and teachers will be blamed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Justin, I am really interested in what you said about teaching a person how to learn. I have seen many people teach and I don't think anybody has been doing that. Can you explain what you mean or link to where you got your ideas?
I think this is a great idea. Of course not new, but then again, most wouldn't think of it. |
Wow- a single link would be hard to provide; learner training, or learning training perhaps, is one of the cornerstones of the field, in my moderately humble opinion. Without learning training, the most a teacher can do is to impart information IN the classroom. By training students in good learning techniques, one can help them to become able to continue the learning process outside the classroom, to become autonomous.
Influences of mine...virtually anything by Earl Stevich can be really interesting, philosophically, about this responsibility of teachers. Learning strategy training is also a current that runs through my own experience of teacher training, working with the School for International Training.
Several posters have commented that, to work, this idea implies that students have to WANT to learn. I strongly agree. I have to say, though, students that don't want to learn English rarely come into the classroom, in my experience. I know, I know: some put shockingly little into it, and others are so misguided in what they think they should do that whether they put a little or a lot into it matters little. But, in my experience, the vast majority of them DO want to be able to speak English.
I think an awful lot of what teachers write off as poor motivation is really a sign of frustration. Students, and too frequently teachers, don't know how to go about learning a language. They DO try, in the beginning. But when they try, as best they know how, and results don't seem to come at all, they eventually shut down. (One case of "low motivation students.")
Other students have been successful learners in the past, but never of languages. They try to apply the techniques that worked in learning, say, the legal code, and find it doesn't really apply. These often get frustrated with teachers who want them to speak, not memorize, and they pray for rules and concrete answers, not ambiguity. These often come off as bad attitude students, because they ask hard questions, want rules, and aren't interested in real communicative practice.
Here's a concrete example:
Mozzar has a frustrating student, not unlike many we all know.
| Quote: |
| After another frustrating lesson with a student that refuses to understand (but still goes into a strop because I refuse to tell him what to do in his mother tongue) it's clear that student motivation has the biggest impact. |
I don't know this student, but here's a hypothesis.
I reject the idea that this student is consciously refusing to understand. After all- what does he get out of that? Most people don't cause frustration for themselves and their teachers for no good reason. I imagine Mozzar is right, that the student is failing to understand, when he is clearly CAPABLE of it. But I have to think that, from the student's point of view, he simply doesn't understand.
Why the disjoint? An experienced, perceptive teacher sees that the student clearly possesses the language necessary to understand a given utterance or instruction. The student, sincerely I presume, remains convinced that he does not.
Hard to say, since I don�t know the student. Here�s a possibility: Most people don�t want to make fools of themselves. He may suspect he knows what you�ve said. He might be nearly sure�but he�s not 100% sure. He may be hardly sure at all. But he�s got maybe sixteen years of education behind him that have told him that he only REALLY knows when he can say what it means in his native language. Maybe 16 years of education that have taught him that teachers are supposed to tell you the answers, exactly and without equivocation. If a teacher tells him he should just (gulp) answer or act, without getting this clarification first, that teacher is: invalidating his very real feeling of nerves and fear of being wrong; and failing to do his or her job as the student understands it.
Unsurprisingly, some students strop. Unfortunate. But let�s get it straight- you won�t move this student from stropping to learning until you figure out why he�s acting this way, and address the reasons. In the case of the student I imagined above, I might spend some time on clarification strategies, or ways for him to check his understanding IN ENGLISH without having to resort to native language. Frankly, I�d probably also have a chat with him, in Spanish if necessary, on the importance of guessing, practicing, and not translating all the time.
I understand the urge, confronted with a really frustrating student, to want to scream: �HE/SHE has to be doing this ON PURPOSE!�
But honestly, how much sense does that make? Sure, if you can dream it, somebody will do it. But I don�t think it�s as common as teachers seem too often to claim. Most of your most frustrating students are frustrating because they do, in fact, want to learn, don�t know how, and act out their own frustration.
You can blame them, or you can show them how. Do it.
Best,
Justin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
