Job Discussion Forums

[Marcoregano]

I wonder what proportion of TEFLers/expats in HK bother to try and learn Cantonese? It seems to me that compared to other countries I've been in very few make much effort. This can be explained partly by the fact that you can 'get by' with English, but I don't think this can be the only reason. This may not be very politically correct, but I find the local people so extraordinarily dull that my drive to commune with them is virtually non-existent. I did start up some lessons a couple of years ago but it fizzled out. Of course, I often do wish I could speak this lingo, but is it worth the pain?

[jenny-pnet]

I would actually like to learn Cantonese --- but I find time is a real issue. There is never enough of it to be able to squeeze lessons in. Perhaps a reason why people don't learn is because Cantonese is that it so specific to this tiny part of the world. And people probably feel that if they are going to put in a considerable time and effort learning a language it should be one that is more serviceable. i.e. can be used in a more widespread sense. Just a thought. Other people have said to me that it is much harder to learn Cantonese than Mandarin. So maybe that comes into it. And of course, as you said, it is possible to get by here with English, so people don't bother. Although it does bug me a bit sometimes when Chinese teachers (and kids) are prattling away in their mother tongue and I can't understand a word. And I hate being treated like a baby where I have to have everything of significance translated. I wonder if it makes them (the Chinese teachers) feel superior to us.

[foster]

Given that jenny just mentioned everything I would have, I have to agree that HK is one place where you can *get by*in English.

I would like to understand some of what they are saying. I like going out for lunch with the ladies on Friday, but I usually sit there stone silent and wait for the to tell me what they are talking about. Or, sometimes, one of the ladies will have a one-on-one conversation with me about something different.

Time is of the essence in HK. My weekends are MINE and the last thing I want to do is spend more time in a classroom.

Maybe we should start a Cantonese Dave's ESL class for those of us in HK?

[once again]

I am not so sure about Cantonese being "specific to this tiny part of the world". Check out this link. If I understand it correctly it states that 71,000,000 people use the language.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=YUH

[prplfairy]

Cantonese is the 18th most popular langauge in the world, higher than Italian, and will serve you well in any Chinatown or Chinese run restaurant in the world as it is almost exclusively the language of overseas Chinese.

A few years ago, I learned a language spoken by only 3 million people and what I learned was a) it was the most useful cross-cultural tool I had, b) it gave me an insight into the local cultureand c) it allowed me to meet real locals and not just the Expat-hanger-ons.

Mandarin is suppose to be easier but you won't exactly be having a conversation with your local noodle stall guy in Mandarin I can tell you that.

The point is that Cantonese is great to know for the here and now. If you're not going to be here long then obviously its not essential but if you're gong to stay for more than a year (about the time it takes to acheive internediate status) then it's worth it. For starters try the YMCA in TST which offers 3 levels of Canotese course that consist of 10 2-hour lessons either once a week or twice a week. The cost is around $800 for the whole ten weeks and most courses run at night from 7-9pm on weekdays and I think they may have weekend classes.

[jenny-pnet]

That is really interesting to know. I had no idea that Cantonese was used almost exclusively by overseas Chinese people, and am surprised to find it is more commonly spoken than Italian. I have been told here (by Chinese teachers) that it would be better for my son (who is here with me) to learn Putonghua rather than Cantonese and have been swayed by their reasoning. It is probably because they are under pressure themselves to be able to speak it fluently and are working hard at developing their own Putonghua skills, that they feel it is a more worthwhile language to learn. (In my school it is just starting to be phased in as the medium of instruction for some lower primary year levels) ----- Those Cantonese lessons you mention, prplfairy, sound quite reasonable in price and would be worth considering. But then again, TST is a long way away (for me) and finding time is always a problem. Foster's idea of a Cantonese Dave's ESL class is a good one.

[Marcoregano]

It's true that Cantonese is more 'widespread' than Mandarin but I was reading an article recently which said that Mandarin is now becoming quite common in what used to be Cantonese-speaking enclaves (eg. China Town in London/LA etc), and that some Cantonese in these areas were now learning Mandarin themselves.

Also, in terms of improving your job prospects, Mandarin has to be more useful as China is THE rising economic force in the world and is sending thousands of students overseas every year. While true that more people speak Cantonese than Italian, the vast majority of them live in SE China. If you travel the world I think you will find Italian a lot more useful, if only for its similarity to Spanish.

My wife tried the YMCA Cantonese course and though she quite enjoyed it she didn't get very far with the language and didn't sign up for the next level. I reckon most expats in HK have a try but usually give up. Intermediate after one year? Only if you have a lot of time on your hands and a strong desire to learn it. Which brings me back to my original point above...do you really want to go through all that grief and hard work so that you can talk about money, mahjong, food and er...money....?

[Roger]

When I lived on Peng CHau island for half a year back towards the end of the 1980's, I enrolled for Cantonese given in an extramural course. I guess "extramural" was the local term that means the local university offers some useful courses for the general public without any prequalifications being required.
It was an enjoyable experience, really! On the other hand, HK Chinese having their own temperament you can't really go out and expect a sympathetic coaching from them.
In the 1990's, I came to China, and began visiting HK infrequently. I found that Cantonese was completely useless even inside Guangdong province. Local vernaculars here differ too much from HK Cantonese, and in almost every place here you find a significant admixture of Mandarin speakers.
The Chinese in the diaspora no doubt are a majority of Cantonese natives; but as times change, so will their first lingo.
The ironic specialty of the Cantonese classes I enjoyed in HK was that our native Cantonese speaking teacher was actively planning his relocation to - the USA, for a greencard!

[Wanbro]

Hmm, interesting.

When I first arrived here, a whole 5 months ago, I was pretty surprised to see just how pitifully few of the local expats had attempted to learn the lingo here... Not even the basics, except for maybe a jo san here or there...

Most of my other stints abroad have been South/Central America, where the foreigners by and large would have a go at speaking Spanish - it was nothing pretty, mind - but they'd try. I guess then after arriving I realised Cantonese certainly ain't no Romance language where you can guess a word here or there...

I hear what you say about not wanting to give up weekends to learn it... I work looong hours and the last thing I want to do when I get home is get out the textbooks. Having said that, I've been working hard at it since I've been here and finally it's paying dividends. Although I'm as gweilo as they come, it's a real buzz to be able to read signs here and there, order food, even have a bit of banter here and there.

It has been really rewarding to be able to speak to the guys you see every day - security guards, secretaries etc - and to see their reaction as you stammer out a mish mash of unintelligible sounds, that just happens to have a meaning, however vague...

Keep at it! it really has given me a new lease of life here in HK. Although it's not Mandarin, whilst you're here in Hong Kong, it will open a *lot* of doors, and make life just that little bit easier.

Roger - interesting what you say about it being not v useful in Guangdong - is that because most people there are immigrants from other Chinese cities, or just because people think Putonghua is more important?

[prplfairy]

Although Cantonese isn't the nicest sounding language, in Hong Kong it'll help me buy my fruits and vegetables at the local wet market without trying to use hand gestures and body language. Try getting on a minibus and asking the bus driver if it goes to anywhere besides MTR stops, you think mandarin is going to help you then? It all comes down to the point that it is useful right now in my life. Can it make my life a little easier? Oh, yeah. Best of all, the double takes from the gweilo that's probably been here for six years and doesn't even know how to say "stop the minibus", "where is the ...", etc, etc. Is it easy? No, but what in life worth doing is? The point is that it will make things easier and you are in someone else's backyard so do them the courtesy of learning a little of the local yocal speak and don't be "one of those" foreigners. I mean how do you feel about people who live in your country and don't bother to learn your language?

[Marcoregano]

Ah yes....I absolutely agree about learning the rock-bottom basics for reasons of civility and so on. Plus I imagine yes, it is often useful in a practical sense, especially if you shop in the wet markets etc. No argument there. I confess I have been horribly lazy...4 and a half years here and I only know a few words really....I did quite a few lessons two years ago but that's all forgotten already. Still, my point above was that I need a stronger incentive to get stuck into Cantonese than just getting around...like a desire to go beyond the basics. But I find the locals - forgive me - so incredibly boring, that I simply don't have that desire.

[Wanbro]

Marco - just wondering, where did you go for your lessons? Were they any good? Were most people learning gweilos trying to grasp the basics?

I find it pretty surprising you can't seem to find any locals who have a good bit of banter... I find it so frustrating simply because everyone around me seems to be laughing and joking and generally having such a fun time and I can't keep up with them...

Or maybe more likely they're all laughing at me...

[Roger]

Wanbro,
in Shenzhen native Cantonese speakers are a drop in an ocean of northern migrants. My former employer was a Shandong businessman who ran Cantonese classes taught by his Mandarin speaking sister whose Cantonese was atrocious!
In Foshan, Shunde and Zhongshan the Cantonese outnumber Mandarin speakers, but their dialect is way different from the Canton (Guangzhou) and HK varieties!
I reckon, half of the Pearl RIver Delta's population are migrants, and the indigenous people remain in large pockets such as Canton. Everywhere else - especially in Dongguan, Shenzhen, Shantou (special dialect!), Zhuhai you are dealing with new arrivals that turned former villages into metropolises that now are home to speakers of northern dialects!

[Marcoregano]

Hi Wanbo, I have a feeling that if you found out what they were laughing at you wouldn't find it so funny. In western terms the Cantonese have a very childish and often sneering sense of humour. At least, this is what I've managed to garner after a few years of living here. I teach adult classes and well, they aren't particularly highly educated but even so I'm sometimes amazed at their lack of world-knowledge and their all-round gullibility. I like them, but I don't think there's much common ground. Perhaps it'd be different if I was teaching in a university environment.

I took my Cantonese lessons with, oddly enough, a Norwegian woman who married a Cantonese and is now fluent. She's quite good and can se difficulties from a western perspective, which helps. She's not cheap though. Most of her clients are expat businessmen. I can't remember her name (Cecilia!) but she's quite well known and is sometimes on tv. She calls her outfit 'Jellyfish language bureau' or something weird like that.

[Wanbro]

Ha - too true. Sometimes I have been *amazed* at what my colleagues find quite so side-splittingly amusing...

Whilst, admittedly, mistakes in tones can lead to quite funny moments (I have a very long list...) I guess I'm still searching for what the guidebooks all refer to as the fearsomely sharp-witted sense of humour the locals possess... I guess I just thought when I'd got a decent grasp of the language, I'd be enlightened, but, thinking about it, maybe I'm in for a long wait...