Job Discussion Forums

[mcsensei]

I have lived in two Asian countries, Japan and Vietnam. During this time I have encountered a couple of EFL teachers who have taught in Thailand who have said how poorly the expats were treated by the Thais. When I mentioned to them that my wife and I felt extremely welcomed there, they said that it was common for toursits to feel that way, but that if you lived there, you would be made to feel like an outsider, and looked down on.

I raise this issue because we just spent the last 5 days in Bangkok and found it in so many ways to be such a nice city. If you compare the service and transporation of Saigon and BKK, for instance, there is really no comparison. Although both cities have traffic jams, and those in BKK may take longer to get through, the Thais actually follow traffic rules, give way to pedestrians and allow a bit of space in between vehicles. In addition, the service was about as good as anywhere I have experienced in Asia. We also enjoyed the shopping and were surprised to find that many things were actually cheaper in BKK than in Saigon. Even the taxis were less expensive! In fact, my wife and I did not want to leave and started thinking about moving to BKK.

I have travelled and lived abroad enough--for roughly 10 years-- to know that expats are rarely if ever treated the same as locals, in any country. And I accept this. Although, for example, I have heard foreigners in Japan and Vietnam complain of being treated unfairly, I have never felt like I have generally been treated badly as a foreigner in these countires. On the other hand, I have read quite a few posts about teachers in Korea sensing a rather xenophobic atmosphere there. While I don't know if this is true, I questioned whether expats in Korea and Thailand felt similarly ostracized.

In Alex Kerr's (who has spent most of his life living in Japan but now lives in BKK) new book 'Bangkok Found' he states that "[Thailand] is unquestionably the most welcoming country for a westerner in Asia." What do other expats living in Thailand think? I would be especially interested in hearing the views of those who have lived in other countries as well as Thailand.

[Pauleddy]

This is a huge topic/question. If you look at some of the replies to the last 20 or 30 postings, you may get some ideas from the western teacher viewpoint.

There are many books which profess to "examine" Thailand and the culture, and give ideas of what it's like here. Some are bar-fly books, while some are serious.

As to 'what people think', there are as many views as there are visitors. If you look at all of my postings, you may get my views.

Sure, it is 'welcoming' here--more than Ethiopia. But there is so much to understand as to WHY it is welcoming.

Very few of us really understand it here--layers in layers.

We are always farang, even when we live here 40 yrs and marry.

I doubt whether many people will opt to give deep profound responses to you. You are phishing for something which is impossible to explain in great detail without loads of spare time, knowledge and inclination. IMHO.

Eddy

[RiverMystic]

I don't think you need an in-depth analysis. Considering that millions of the worst possible dregs of western humanity infiltrate TL every year, the Thais are remarkably welcoming. I am Australian. If say, Japanese people came to Australia and hit the bars and went for the hos, then I think there'd be a mass wave of anti-Japanese sentiment.

I've been to TL about ten times, and found most Thais pretty good. Sure, many in the tourist/transport industries will try to fleece you of every baht they can, but it's the same in many countries. Still, I have had many instances of managers in Thai hospitality industry grant amazing amounts of trust to me, an unknown foreigner. One time the ATM machine ate my card, and the woman at the hotel I was staying just smiled and said "Pay me when you get the cash." (Let me eat and sleep there for a week till I got money through!) Another time I rocked up at a bar on my first night and had a beer. I only had 100 baht on me, but the manager said I could order what I wanted, and that I could come back and pay the next day! I was dumbfounded, and said "What makes you think I will come back to pay?". She said, "I can tell you are honest from your eyes." There have been similar instances elsewhere. I can tell you that in ten years of living in Chinese culture, I have never once had any Chinese worker/manager grant me credit, and extreme distrust is the norm. Money is all to the Chinese, and if you don't have it, you can forget having any "connections". Have it - and the all important guanxi - and you will be treated like a king.

[PattyFlipper]

^ I have a contrary opinion.

Having visited, lived, and occasionally worked in Thailand on and off since 1986 and being in a relationship with one of its citizens for 13 years, I would say the Thais are some of the most xenophobic people around. Thailand is also just as money-obsessed as China (indeed the country, its business and political institutions are owned and run by Thai-Chinese. The business owners mentioned by the previous poster were almost certainly of Chinese ethnicity). Google an English translation of the Thai national anthem, sung in schools throughout the Kingdom every morning, to get an insight into how the Thais regard themselves and what they think of non-Thais. Until fairly recently, Thai women married to foreigners were prohibited from owning land or holding shares in publicly quoted companies (and there are still somewhat draconian regulations in place controlling the former). Discrimination such as this is all pervasive in Thailand. I have had Thais openly admit to me that most people in the country do not like foreigners.

To the vast majority of the Thai populace, Westerners are simply 'farang' from this place called 'farangland'. Little or no attempt is made to distinguish between a farang who is an educated professional, an investing industrialist, a Soi Nana brothelkeeper or a crook on the lam. This mind-set permeates all strata of Thai society, from the lowly motorcy taxi driver to the political/military/industrial clique which owns and runs the country and its businesses. The situation is little better among the so-called educated classes, as Thai teachers and university 'professors' are some of the worst offenders in my view, possessing and disseminating the most ill-informed, stereotypical prejudices.

Of course, matters are not helped by the reality that a sizeable proportion of the farang flotsam and jetsam which wash up on Thai shores are often the dregs of their own societies, thus perpetuating and reinforcing the chauvinism and fuelling the xenophobia. As individuals, we can perhaps chip away at the negative perceptions through positive interaction with some Thai nationals, but I feel it is an uphill battle given the anti-foreign rhetoric spouted by many Thai politicians, the mindless sensationalism of much of the popular Thai language media (I know the UK and other Western countries are guilty of this too), the rabidly nationalistic brainwashing which is so often passed off as education in Thailand, and the behaviour of some Western tourists and 'residents' in the country.

Visiting Thailand as a tourist is a very different proposition to actually living there as a foreigner. The smiles and wais tend to disappear when you are no longer spending your tourist dollars and euros with abandon. Many Westerners , including those with Thai wives and children, are leaving for more welcoming climes.

The link below has been posted around the internet from time-to-time and the article was written several years ago - even before the flames of innate Thai xenophobia had been fanned by successive governments. Nevertheless, I think it should be compulsory reading for any Westerner contemplating living and working in Thailand.

Don't Move to Thailand

[Pauleddy]

I am loth to get into this thread but I will give my twopence worth.

Below is a recent post of mine, in response to another thread.

Unfortunately, most folk on here sit in Seattle or Solihull UK and dream of Thailand in terms of girls, beers and golden buddhas.

Thais are generally xenophobic and small-minded. Most have no idea about globalisation, economics, world history etc. My last partner, a graduate, didn't know where Stockholm is located and didn't know what the currency of France is called. Thailand is run by a small clique. TV and internet are censored. Corruption is endemic. People of rank line their pockets. Poor country people have been totally exploited for years. I could witter on and on.

Unfortunately, we all hit the learning curve. I sold my European house and took early retirement a few yrs back, because I had the dream too---the dream described in the article, I guess. I couldn't wait to get here.

In saying all of this, I have met some marvellous, kind and warm people...but the general vibe here, I admit, means that I agree 95% with PattyFlipper and the article he quotes.

A two week or two month holiday in Phuket or Pattaya is totally different to living here.

I recently heard of someone who moved to Bali from Thailand. He said he should have done it 20 years ago, and what a fool he was.

Recent post of mine intended to discourage the gullible:

Here are just some of the downsides of Thailand (no upsides today!):

1. 95% of the people will be a lot poorer than you. That includes lovers/partners. The 5% who are rich-er will not bother you and are very smug already with their Armani and Mercedes. Some are much, much richer than u will ever be, and will not be interested in you unless you are George Clooney in looks and money, or a surgeon. Status is a big thing here.

1a. It is completely normal that you will be seen as a provider, unless the partner is professional/rich/etc. Many people, including very streetwise and clever ones, have ended up buying cars or house extensions for the wife's family. Even those who said "no, not me, never". Believe me. You are seen as an ATM. get it tatooed on yr head if u want. Of all the couples I know, straight or gay, less than 10% are like "normal western people" where both work and contribute and save up for a sofa etc etc etc.

1b. If u meet a nice girl and want to marry her, most families will want a dowry. Could be 20,000usd or 100,000usd. Some (a few) modern or wealthy families don't ask for it. ALL poorer, traditional or rural-type families want it, along with rings and bars of gold AND a nice wedding which you pay.

2. The government is always unstable. There have been at least 10 coups since the 80s. The current gvment has a lot of problems but keeps sweet with the army.

3. Wages are bad, unless you are a Harvard PhD in a "want-you" job/ a very well qualified high school teacher// and/or and have a pension or plenty money. The normal teacher salary is about 35,000b a month. About 900-1000 usd. People in studio apartments who eat rice CAN live on this. people who like to have pizza, taxis, trainers and parties have problems.

4. The visa system s--ks. Even Malaysia and Korea make it easier to stay. Please, check the visa sites. I am no expert, but you CANT stay here permanently unless you have a f-t job or are retired, or marry. I am retired, but I still have to queue up every 3 mths to prove I am here.

5. People really think that you can arrive and head into a job under palm trees right on the beach and have massage all day. That stuff is fantasy.

6. Most schools and universities have terrible/disorganised administration. You won't be asked for opinions or given options. If you are seen as non-conforming, they will get rid of you. As a teacher, you are often an "edu-tainer", and you have to have "fun". Like a clown. In some places, you must give all kids a pass grade. ALL.

7. For all its image, Thighland is very non-PC. If you are NOT white, well-dressed, native, cute and young-ish--you may not get a job. Dark Thai people and black/afro/dark Indian people are 3rd class here.

8. Bangkok, and most of Thailand, are very hot and humid. With the pollution, Bangkok is always warmer than, say, Kuala Lumpur in steamy Malaysia (I know both places well). Some people can't stand the heat, especially in April/May. The aircon is 90% always on, but it's not do-able for some folks.

Have Fun

Eddy

[RiverMystic]

I think you guys have been in TL too long. Pattyflipper was on the China forum a while back with more of the same. My wife is Chinese, loves TL, and agrees with everything I say. She's now doing Thai-related business. The hospitality we have been shown is no more imaginary than the rip off taxi drivers. You takes the good with the bad, and my experience is that a significant number of people in Thai hospitality and general industry are very generous in a way we never encountered in Confucian culture - despite a decade of exposure in my case, and lifetime in the case of my wife.

And for the record, we have no interest in Phuket style places and the massage/booze culture. We went to Phuket once, and will never return.

[PattyFlipper]

[Pauleddy]

RMystic--

Sure. As you wish, each to his own.

The op asked for opinions:

quote--

"What do other expats living in Thailand think? I would be especially interested in hearing the views of those who have lived in other countries as well as Thailand"

I have lived in other places, and I have been here a while. So I am just helping out the OP as he desires...answering his query.

PattyF has been around in TL since 86. He is just giving his opinion too.

As I said, there are as many opinions as people who have been here.

Eddy

[mcsensei]

Thank you everyone for sharing your views.

I realize that it is impossible to truly know what it's like to live in a country by simply visiting for a short time. Although I must admit I am disappointed to hear so many negative views of Thailand, I appreciate that in most cases specific instances of stupidity, racist views, etc. were cited rather than fuzzy generalizations.

In Saigon, where my wife and I live at the moment, we don't experience much of any of that which was listed above. Sure there are annoyances, but we basically feel welcomed here and have not had any major issues. And judging from the posts I've read, the pay and working conditions in Vietnam seem to be better, although this is hard to judge with so many different types of schools and varying degrees of quality in both countries.

We plan to stay here for another two years, but it has become increasingly boring and annoying. I hate the traffic and the poor service. While the Vietnamese do have some great personal qualities, and there are a number of people here whom I admire, the culture as a whole seems to be lacking sometning. Maybe I compare it too much to Japan, but I just don't find a whole lot here to admire or benefit from.

Despite all that has been said, I'll still consider Thailand. Not necessarily as a final destination, but as a new place to live for a year or more.

[roguegrafix]

I think a lot of how people react to you depends on how much you try to fit in. For the last 8 years I've lived and worked at a Thai rural university, before that, 8 years in the international education field in Bangkok. In 98% of my dealings with Thais, it's been positive -- especially the last 8 years--always treated with respect and courtesy except the times I was not courteous and respectful. So tit for tat. What's new? There are good and bad people in every country. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

I think that you really need to make an effort and change your behaviour to become more "Thai"--especially in terms of patience and being unconfrontational. Treat life here as a game you have to play by the Thai rules. Trying to do things in a "rational, sensible and Western way" will get you no where in most cases.

Learning the language -- enough so you can distinguish when people are being rude to you -- goes a long way. I see some farangs experiencing the problems that PaulEddy and others mentioned. They are mostly to blame because they are trying to deal with things in a farang way and have absolutely no patience or cultural understanding. I'm not saying it's all a bed of roses, but mostly it has been in my experience.

[Austeach2010]

Hello All,

I was intrigued with this topic and reluctant at first to ad comments but as this topic has started to grow, I have surrendered.
I have been coming to Thailand on and off for 19 years. I first came when I was 18, firstly as a tourist and then as a resident staying for a stretch of 4 years at one time. I have lived in Vietnam for a year and Germany for Two. I have to admit that I am sometimes disturbed when local people misinterpret me as being a tourist however only recently I went to the bloody Zoo for the first time. What are Thai people supposed to think, �Hey Man you want Tuk Tuk or Water� Shit I am white and walking around in Ripcurl shorts and runners, carrying a backpak. I have a bit of fun sometimes as I do speak the language, at times I pretend not to understand; other times I put the touters in their place. It is not too much dissimilar to back home in Australia for migrants, the longer you live there are you really ever an Australian. You may ask where this is going and my point? Well here it is�����
Get over yourselves, you are not that special. Most Thais don�t even bat an eyelid to foreigners they have seen them for decades, back to the sixties and seventies in fact. The ones who pay more attention to you than most are just curious, about fashion trends or your general character, others want to sell you some shit and so forth (everyone needs to make a buck). Most of the time if one goes about their business, doesn�t act like a stupid tourist or arrogant expat then no one cares. This is the most free and most accommodating Country in Asia. The problem here and in Asia is that most Westerners want to change the environment to suit them. Just Chillout.

Great thread roguegrafix.

[PattyFlipper]

[NigerianWhisper]

Sigh..........................Lived in Thailand 8 years. Wife and kids. Home in Korat.

Always been treated well.......obviously there is the odd Thai nutcase........, the rip-off merchants etc etc. Same as every other country.

Learning the language helps an awful lot. Same as learning the customs although as foreigners we will never fully understand all the layers of Thai society.

InLaws have been my biggest help. Never asked for a Sin-Sot. Never been asked for money. The In-Laws work.

Personally I think Thailand is a great place to live. There again, I have never thought of myself as superior, or demanded Western type 'fast excellent service'.

[winthorpe]

[Kalima Shahada]