Job Discussion Forums

[dakeos]

Hi I'm new here and have browsed the forums and I've learnt a lot from the feedback you guys have been giving. I have a lot of questions so I apologise in advance for the lengthy post.

I was just wondering if anyone could offer me advice.

As stated in the title my mother is Indonesian and my father Irish. I have been a UK resident for 20 years, but hold an Irish passport. Will this make it more difficult to get a working Visa?

I am also planning on getting a job sorted before I go and was planning on going with EF, but have decided against it from reading various posts on this forum. I have no experience in teaching, but have a marketing and computer science degree and have been working as an assitant product manager for Johnson's and Johnson's for the past 2 and a half years. Would my business qualification and background help me get better employment in Indonesia? Or would I have to go with a company like EF due to my lack of teaching ESL experience? Can anyone recommend any other schools or companies that would take on less experienced teachers other than EF?

I'm not planning on leaving my job and hopping on a plane until September. Is this a bad time of year to start work? Is it too early to arrange a job, Visa etc. now?

I was originally planning on applying for better paid jobs within the UK as a product manager, but have decided to take this opportunity to spend some time with the family in Indonesia instead, and to return to the UK in a year or two and carry on with my career. Would future employers see this gap in my CV as a bad thing?

I have also done the 20 hour weekend TEFL course with UK-TEFL. I would have preferred to have done a lengthier course, but due to my work commitments it would have been very difficult to find time for anything more.

I understand that English will be the only language spoken in the classes, but I also speak very good Bahasa as my mother has always spoken it around the house as we were all growing up, would this also be a plus point in the eyes of any potential employer?

I've also seen that the going rate for new teachers is between 7 - 9m Rp, Should I aim higher? I am only looking to work in Jakarta, despite the pollution etc. I actually love the city and have always wanted to spend a large amount of time there. I have already arranged to move in with one of my cousins in Jakarta rent free, therefore accommodation and living costs will not be an issue. Will I be able to live comfortably not having to fork out for these things?

Again, I apologise for the long post, but these are the things that have been running through my mind regarding packing up my job for a year or two. Any any advice would be much appreciated.

Dan

[laughing_magpie06]

Unfortunately Ireland (as in the Republic) is not one of the designated countries seen as 'Native Speaking' even though it is no doubt and English speaking country. I would like to see the figures on how many actually speak Gaelic at home. Therefore, when Immigration go to do your paperwork, they will say you don't qualify as being a 'Native English Speaker'.
Some schools employ Filipinos, Indians and Indonesians as teachers but i'm not sure how they do this. They are usually at the lower end of the scale though (like EF) and salaries are much lower than for British, American, Australian teachers etc. I've got to say it is a shame you don't have an Indonesian passport as it would make your life much simpler as to your legal status within the country.
I worked for 3.5 years in Indonesia and have found finding work back home rather difficult. There is of course the GFC but still i'm disappointed that prospective employers see time in another country as a hole in your CV rather than a new and challenging experience. If you can keep your old job and return to it, it would be okay for you as at least you know where you stand and have something to fall back on.
Finally, being fluent in Bahasa Indonesia is no help at all as language schools will want you only to speak English.
Sorry to sound a little negative but this is pretty much the situation. However I do hope you can find something and get over there as you will enjoy many aspects and it is interesting.
All the best!

[malu]

It won't be easy to get any kind of English teaching position. An Eire passport is not acceptable to the Manpower ministry for authorisation to employ someone as a native English speaker. It is very stupid, but true. While this is Indonesia and a number of doors can be opened by making financial donations in the traditional way, no school will go to that expense if they can get a Aus/Can/NZ/UK/US person. I can't see them bending over backwards to employ someone without experience.

Being fluent in BI won't help, and nor will looking at all Indonesian (if you do). In a previous employ I remember a woman applying who was a NZ citizen, born in NZ of Indonesian parents, and holding a CELTA certificate. By any logical reasoning she was a native English speaker with the correct passport and qualification and she should have got the job easily. However, that school rejected her because she 'looked too Indonesian'.

[monyet]

Hi Dan,
Have you thought about getting British citizenship? I think you would be eligible as you have lived here for over 5 years and it might easier to go with the 'right' passport rather than having problems when you get there.
UK border agency website http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/
Sorry I can't help with your questions about working in Indonesia, I'm working in Chester at the moment, but give me a shout if you want to meet up before you go.
Rob

[dakeos]

You're in Chester? I live in Upton by Chester

Thank you for all the responses, and your honesty.

I thought the Irish passport might have presented some issues. I have lived in Chester since the age of 7, was eduacted and went to university here so I would assume I would qualify for a British passport. I was toying with the idea of applying for one as I assumed it would have been easier for work etc. over in Indonesia.

The only thing about going, as I said before would be finding another marketing job when I came back. I understand that a gap in your CV, no matter how well you explain it, could potentially deter future employers. But I see this as my only real opportunity left, while I'm still young (27) to do something I've always wanted to do, before I fully focus on my marketing career. If it turns out to be worth it, I don't mind taking 2 steps back.

As for my appearance, I've been told I look more half Japanese as opposed to half Indonesian, would this still be considered too Indonesian for many schools?

[monyet]

Tis a small world, I work just off Newton Lane probably no more than 300m from where you live!

I don't have any experience of recruiting or working in marketing but I would think that you could present your experiences teaching in Indonesia in a very positive light, as experiences gained outside your field are often more important to your professional development than following a linear career path. I would ask a friendly colleague in your company's HR department their thoughts on the matter.

The other advice I've heard to people in a similar situation as you and I is why not continue working in your chosen field but find a job in Indonesia. Easier said than done, but it's an idea and some people other than well paid executives have managed it.

[Madame J]

Looking Indonesian may be an issue at some schools, but at the EF here we have a couple of ethnically Asian native speakers who found jobs here no problem. One of them is always being mistaken for an Indonesian when she's out and about. I'd expect schools who discriminate based upon appearance to be extremely dodgy anyway.

[dakeos]

Thanks again for all the advice.

I live off Newton Lane, bout 100m away from the sports centre, so very close indeed.

I've followed the link you provided and should qualify for British citizenship, touch wood. I suppose in the long run it'll help things go a little smoother. Thanks for posting that up.

I'm kind of stuck in a rut in my current job as I specialise in product managment as opposed to marketing in general. I've been searching for a better job in the Manchester area for 6 months or so now, and there's hardly been anything. I'd hate to miss this opportunity to experience Indonesia only to still be sat in this same job in a years time. I do enjoy my work, but feel it's time to move on, but there seems like nowhere to go in this climate. I do feel like I could justify the year out.

I have also looked at the option of a marketing job in Indonesia, but again there doesn't seem to be a lot coming up that doesn't require significantly more experience than I currently have to offer. It could be a possibility if I decide to stay past a year perhaps?

Dan

[phis]

With your marketing experience, and as you speak Bahasa Indonesia, once you are employed as a teacher, I bet the school will want to use you to help market their courses, etc. It would be up to you to negotiate what, if any, extra payment you would get for this. It's up to you to 'market' yourself!

However, the positive side of this would be that you could then explain that you would like your marketing work to be emphasized in an end of contract reference. In this way, on your re-entry into the marketing field, your absence would not be seen as a break in your career, but as a variation that included working in the international arena..... always a plus in these times of multinational corporations.

Experience is experience, the more varied the better!

[dakeos]

I never even thought of the idea of offering my marketing services alongside teaching. Excellent, thank you.

[Henry_Cowell]

If you're a good entrepreneur, you might eventually want to open your OWN English school in Jakarta. With your local cousins' help, you could run the marketing and teaching ends and your cousins could do the finances.

So you'll be doing marketing, product management, and other fun things -- but in Indonesia. Your native-English-speaking qualifications will be seen as highly competitive alongside schools that are owned and operated by non-native-English-speaking Indonesians.

[malu]

[scooby doo]

Sorry, I disagree. More like a recipe for disaster. Why would a person "eventually" want to open a business in a field in which he has no experience, no training, no qualifications, no contacts and no idea about? I'm sure this is meant to be helpful and normally that could be considered good advice for someone with guts and enough capital. However, the reason there are countless postings on this site from disappointed teachers is because so many language schools are run by unqualified people with no professional standards. Moreover, govt officials target people who don't play by the rules and follow the laws, regardless of whether they are Indonesians or foreigners or mixed.


Dakeos, DO come to Indo to enjoy your family and connect with your roots. Since this seems to be your primary goal, why aim too high? Take what you can get because the better schools will want to see EFL qualifications or some sign indicating that you're at least toying with the idea of trying teaching as a second career. If you're not committed (yet) to teaching and are just taking a year off (which is great BTW) then EF is not the worst place to start.

I am not Asian looking, but it infuriates me to hear that teachers are refused employment because they look 'local'. The whole idea is ridiculous and racist. I urge everyone who encounters this to forcefully object. I believe most Indonesians learners have more integrity than that and will prefer a good Asian-looking teacher over a white backpacking joker. As a Dos, I will happily boot out (and I almost did) any student who merely hints that they're unhappy with the teacher because of race.

To EF's credit (I'm not with EF), I have not heard that they discriminate.

Re the issue with the Irish passport. Last year I had an Irish teacher, we had no problems with his visa or other papers. Some kids (not all) had trouble with his accent though, so I would recommend sounding as neutral as possible during interviews.

Finally, Dakeos, I think it is a bit too early to land a job, start a visa process, etc. If you want to leave in September then May/June might be more realistic. Then again, good old EF hires all year around. Good luck, I'm sure you'll enjoy your time here!

P.S. When you do find yourself in the classroom, avoid using Indonesian in teaching situations unless you are completely sure about usage and intonation. If you say something incorrect you risk losing the respect of the students (I've seen this happen a lot; kids think "teacher doesn't know what he's talking about... ). Using bahasa in informal settings while hanging out with students is probably ok for rapport.

[Henry_Cowell]

[dakeos]

Thank you all again.

I will not be using Indoensian in the classroom whatsover, as I do also see this causing some potential problems.

For the moment I am just looking for a year out to spend some time with the family and get involved in Indonesian culture etc. But would not rule out the possibility of staying on if I enjoyed it, and perhaps opening a school eventually as you suggested. But agree that I would need a lot more experience, qualifications, finances etc. before even considering that.
But you have all given me a couple things to possibly think about and ponder over while I'm in Indonesia, both for and against, thank you.

As for EF, I guess most of the negative things I have heard about are regarding accomodation, is it really that bad? As I said I would not need them to arrange this for me as I would probably pay rent (if any) to live with one of my cousins. Would they then give me an accomodation allowance to cover this? Working on Saturdays isn't great, but I guess I shouldn't be too picky as I have no teaching experience at all.

Dan