Job Discussion Forums

[china-1994]

I came back to Beijing after almost 4 months back in Canada.Every time I return home I get marveled at for having the gall to have lived abroad doing ESL for almost 15 years,as well as concern.

Years back, when I started this work, it seemed that the risk-reward of staying in Canada seemed to me riskier to stay in Canada.Now that my disability(middle-age) is creeping up on me, I've started to wonder how risky ESL is. Maybe ESL is only for the 20-30ish folks who have other options,if they choose to leave it.

On my trip home, I saw that many jobs paid significantly more than many entry level ESL jobs,though the growing number of McJobs counter that argument.
When I think that a person will accept a job halfway around the world with little knowledge of what lay in store,little if any financial and emotional support (being friends and family) for a job that actually doesn't pay that much...seems to hold undue risks.
Those with better than average qualifications, going into international schools, or having meaningful medical coverage- those jobs, I can understand.
Maybe this level of risk is palatable to the younger ESL-er or the semi-retired,but financially secure older person.
Agree or disagree ?
Cheers,
BH

[mozzar]

My opinion would be that if you stay in this field for any length of time that you�ll get better qualified and not stay in the entry level jobs a moment longer than you have to. In a few years I don�t want to be applying for the same job as a newbie. No different to any other career where you gain professional qualifications along the way.

[denise]

[china-1994]

I love this long held dysphemism "backpacker" to divorce them from us.
I got it. I'm to blame for my lot. All that I've seen in all my years in ESL, would have been poofed away by an B.Ed or M.Ed. Well, here in China this higher plane of ESL-ism would shrink the pool of schools from a guesstimate of 300,000 to about 50.
If I had only made enough money to afford more education...I get it ! If I had had a B.Ed/M.Ed, I could have earned enough to...huh?
A tad smug ?

[johnslat]

Dear china-1994,

A tad defensive?

Regards,
John

[denise]

[Teacher in Rome]

I agree with John and Denise. Pretty much the only way to differentiate between ESL teachers is through qualifications. It might not be fair, but further degrees open doors. A Masters is going to count for more than 15 yrs experience in China - especially if you want the higher paying jobs in the Gulf.

[spiral78]

Working 15 years without gaining more quals?

Sorry, but, well... what would anyone end up with after 15 years of doing most any job that requires a 30 day certification course or less?

Yeah, sorry, but it simply takes some commitment in terms of energy, money, time, and etc. to get ahead, regardless of the field of employment. If you haven't got such commitment and are content to continue long-term in entry-level jobs, competing with raw newbies....well, yes, it's the majority of the work base.

There will always be more McDonald's restaurants around than better/nicer places that require more professional skills from their workers. But pay and benefits will always be tied to skills and quals and reputation, and how professional those are.

It's not as simple as backpackers versus 'us' - but in the end, it does boil down to commitment and professionalism. Just like in every other job that leads to a career.


Signed - a career teacher who's invested.....

[fluffyhamster]

At the risk of being a complete bore (boor?), can I just wonder aloud (again?) if MAs are the new Cert?

Not having a go at the MA holders here on Dave's, who seem a pretty informed and capable bunch (or at least have positions that would suggest they are informed and capable ), just saying, everybody including my aunt seems to have one nowadays. (So, what next, a PhD in...?).

Anyway, the reasons I for one have yet to go for an MA (after over a decade TEFLing - but hey, maybe AETing in Japan shouldn't at all count!) are:
a) I think I came to TEFLing, certainly in Japan, waaay too late, well after the bubble had burst and saving any serious sum had become a lot more difficult (i.e. I suspect that many who now possess MAs had saved a tidy sum by the early to mid-1990s)...for example, I had colleagues in China in 1996 who'd already worked Japan for about a decade or something and had �20-30K saved, whilst I was thinking 8000 RMB/month was a king's ransom
b) I simply wasn't prepared to sacrifice ongoing "short-term" development, by not buying (expensive) AL books, just for the sake of doing some truly expensive qualification in the never-never, a qualification that incidentally would've had me read many of the same books but simply later rather than sooner (which would've been a bit ironic, no?)...oh, and I did enjoy myself a tiny bit too much on JET (but that decent job was only for 3 years)...anyway, the books I got on Chinese at least (see below) should hopefully prove their worth eventually!
c) I have come to the conclusion that, certainly in terms of learning much if anything really in depth about your native language, the best teacher you can have is actually yourself anyway (though books at least can sure help point the way by summarizing research and suggesting lines to pursue)
d) I have come to rather suspect that education isn't that much different to housing - it expanded beyond all reason, certainly in the UK, due to the dearth of genuine industry and a real economy, and now it too is in turmoil, its future financing and fate uncertain...so the words "Mickey Mouse" do unfortunately spring to mind somewhat...and for every cutting-edge bit of ELT-AL produced, there is an excess of featherweight dross
e) The rewards versus costs of everything seem to have reached a tipping point, gone well past break-even and into the realm of no return - see previous point on the hyper-inflated cost of accomodation etc (and welcome by the way to a looming new Dickensian era of poverty and workhouses!)
f) I am tired of being the most qualified person stacking shelves or flipping burgers (but actually, I have never worked in McD's, but I digress) in between ever-seasonal/increasingly intermittent/drying-up/completely unavailable ELT work,
and finally g) I am thinking of switching to Chinese teaching anyway (but still have to work on that quite a bit!). Perhaps I'll get on with the HSK and maybe one day take an MA in TCFL?

Anyway, just trying to "encourage some discussion", as usual! (Maybe I should start a new thread called 'The chutzpah required for posting stuff like this here post of mine').

[denise]

Fluffyhamster--regardless of your opinion of the value of MAs, if the good jobs in the field require them and you want to go after those jobs, then... Well, you get the idea.

In the US, though, I agree that they are what you call "the new Cert". An MA seems to be a minimum requirement in the US, and everyone has one! That said, though, there aren't as many McJobs in the US. Still, though, when I think about the time, money, and effort I put into getting myself qualified and trained and then think about what most jobs back home are offering... Really, you can probably earn more flipping burgers.

d

[Insubordination]

If you have an MA and work in the private TESOL sector in Australia, you have pretty much priced yourself out of a teaching job (there are uni jobs but I think they employ fewer teachers overall). People with an MA earn more under the award and no one wants to hire them.

That's one reason I didn't bother getting one. Another reason is that I have no desire to be a Director of Studies or researcher/consultant. I just want to teach English. I turn down promotions.

The only reason I'd do an MA is to improve my knowledge but the price and time I'd need to dedicate doesn't seem justified at this point. I'd rather get a primary or secondary qual.

[Teacher in Rome]

Fluffy hamster: back in the mid-80's an MA was essential for Gulf jobs, DOS-ing etc. I don't think anything's really changed there, although I take your point that when every last man and his dog has an MA, the value factor goes down.

[johnslat]

Dear Teacher in Rome,

"I don't think anything's really changed there . . ."

It hasn't. If one wants to get a very well-paying teacher's salary in the Middle East, an MA in TESOL or Applied Linguistics (plus at least three years overseas experience) is still required.

Whether one gets an MA or not is, of course, entirely a personal choice.
While it may limit your opportunities in Australia (as Insubordination wrote)
in the EFL field it can certainly open doors to positions that pay a lot more in certain places.
And that's just the way it is.

Regards,
John

[fluffyhamster]

I suppose the problem is that there are some teachers who know little, and care even less (or have egos to more than compensate), yet always expect ever higher pay, but how many of them ever complete an MA, eh? I mean, the failure rate must be a worry, just like the CELTA!

But seriously, I just wonder why everyone should need to take years and spend tens of thousands in order to prove themselves (I mean, were we all functioning so poorly pre-MA?). And why can't ELT have say a relatively quick yet thorough examination (or series of examinations)?

[johnslat]

Dear fluffyhamster,

Whenever this discussion comes up, I get the feeing that teachers who don't have or have chosen not to pursue MAs suspect that teachers who have MAs regard the former as some sort of lower life form.

Umm, no - as has been mentioned numerous times here, we've probably all known some "MA-less teachers who were/are much better in the classroom than some MAs.

In a perfect world, teachers would be compensated on their ability rather than anything else.

However, the world shows little sign of achieving perfection very soon.

So - "And that's just the way it is."

Regards,
Higher Life Form John