Job Discussion Forums

[leeroy]

The other day, I was teaching a "Language Lab" class (don't ask - earmuff style headphones and 1970s technology is all you need to know) when I met, put simply, the most beautiful girl in the world.

She was Colombian, and about 20 minutes late.

Don't get me wrong, she wasn't particularly "sexy" (it's difficult to look sexy with headphones, a rasta-beenie and green puffa jacket under strip-lighting) - nor voluptuous or any of those other adjectives. Just in simple facial terms, she was perfect. As I later boasted in the staff room, she was "God's Master Tape" - all other girls were simply copies made in the dingy "senior teachers' room" with labels peeling off and the last bit from Unit 20 missed out..

Which got me to thinking.. What is beauty exactly?

I hardly spoke to "Maria" (what with that being the nature of Language Lab classes), I didn't notice the way she walked or her views on Middle-Eastern politics. There was nothing else to cloud my judgement or bias my opinion of her. I'm talking in sheer physical terms here (of the face, people...)

It would be easy to write it off as something so subjective it's hardly worth discussing. But it seems that physical beauty is something that often has a consensus of agreement among people. It is rare, for example, that one person is considered absolutely stunning by me but horrifically ugly by you. There is some kind of science to it - there are some factors which determine beauty, which remain almost undeterred by cultural psychology or personal bias.

I once read that beautiful faces are the ones that are "average". Some scientists put in a thousand (or whatever) faces into their computer, told it to make a generic face from it, and got a beautiful one. Thus, beauty is not defined by having a particularly beautiful nose - it is simply the absence of an ugly one. It is easy to determine why people are ugly (big nose, mono-brow, etc...), but harder to describe in a sentence why people are beautiful.

There is a general agreement among teachers and students at my school that Latin Americans (notably Colombians and Venezuelans) are very good-looking. At least, the ones with clear European genetic influence are. (I hope I'm not upsetting too many people when I observe that there is a clear lack of beauties among Peruvians and Bolovians...)

When I was working in Israel (long story...) I noticed that they, too, seemed more handsome and beautiful in a rugged sort of way. So, in walks another theory; people of mixed-race heritage are inherently better looking, on average. Alicia Keys, Norah Jones, they too are "half caste" and are stunning. Could it be that mixing races somehow "irons out the creases"?

I am leaving out the factors of cultural interference here, and I don't want this to degenerate into "Which country has the best looking women?". On a purely physical basis, and as objectively as possible, what defines beauty?

In terms of evolution, what is the point of beautiful people and ugly people? Do animals suffer similar discrimination? I would suppose it initially worked out as a way of choosing a mate who was not physically damaged in some way - which kind of supports the hypthothesis that "beauty is the meer absence of ugliness".

Anyway, I know I really should be getting on with my university work...

[dmb]

Do animals suffer similar discrimination?

Haven't you heard the story of the ugly duckling

[khmerhit]

Eyes of the beholder, mate, eyes of the beholder.....

[Dr.J]

In as far as human societies are similar, they will have broadly similar ideas of beauty. I think you are over generalising. Go back a couple hundred years and it's only fat pale women who are beautiful.

[shmooj]

Leeroy man, a language lab can make anyone look good!
But beauty is far more complex than simple contours of skin and bone. It has to be by definition.
ANd, besides, you haven't met my wife

[Capergirl]

I've seen pictures of your wife, Shmooj. She's very pretty indeed.

I'd also have to say that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". There may be some common denominators (clear skin, facial symmetry, good teeth, etc.), but I think most people are attracted to individuals who are like them in some way. Did you ever notice that most happily-paired couples seem to resemble each other?

[Gordon]

[guest of Japan]

So the obvious question of course is, what are they doing with you guys.

[Cleopatra]

I'malso skeptical about these 'scientific' analyses of beauty:I think it's part of our post-millential obsession with 'science' and trying to find a 'rational' explanation for everything.

It is true that standards of beauty remain remarkably consistent over time and culture. However, isn't that also true in other areas? For example, Mozart's music is universally loved and has been since it was first produced. Beautiful is as beautiful does.

I agree with Capergirl that most couples - obveiously there are exceptions -are usually of a roughly similar level of 'conventional' beauty (or lack of same).

BTW,Dr. J, if you go to the Gulf, you will see that you don't have to go back in time to find cultures where pale, fat women are STILL considered beautiful!

[leeroy]

Oh shame on you goj! That was too easy...

To say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder suggests that it is completely subjective, and that perceptions of beauty differ so wildly between different people and different cultures that no "common ground" exists. Aren't things like as Capergirl listed (skin-tone, good teeth and facial symmetry) considered to be "denominators of beauty" pretty much regardless of culture or personal opinion?

Are these things essentially signs of healthiness, perhaps both physically and genetically? Sick and inbred people are less sexually attractive, from an evolutionary pov, I suppose this makes sense...

Anyone seen the new Britney Spears video? She looks fantastic... Although "how beautiful" is up for debate (and I know there are plenty who would say she is not their type), I doubt very many people in the world could honestly stand up and say they think she looks ugly. Within the air-brushed world of MTV at least, she has flawless skin and teeth, an appropiately "womanly" figure and no clear deformities. It would be a stretch to call her "ugly" as, put simply, there's nothing much wrong with her (physically, at least )

Perhaps I'm way off the mark there though. Perhaps Chinese people are horrified by the roundness of her eyes. Perhaps there are no absolutes, maybe beauty is simply defined only by culture, society and individual preference...

Hmm.. I'm gonna ask the folks in the China forum...

[Kurochan]

I was watching a documentary about beauty that talked to these scientists who studied what people all over the world thought were optimal features, and then put the measurements into a computer that would average them and create a composite picture of the woman the largest number of people in the world would find attractive. The picture came out and it looked almost exactly like Halle Berry! I'm not kidding!

[lagerlout2006]

Lets nip this one in the bud..The Chinese DO NOT consider Britney Sp. an eyesore..

[Lynn]

[leeroy]

To phrase it another way...

I (being a heterosexual British male) find Britney Spears to be attractive.

To what extent are the reasons for this

a) down to my culture, society, media influence and upbringing?
b) down to my own personal preferences?
c) down to Britney having a kind of universal "attractiveness"?

[Cleopatra]

C'mon, do we REALLY need a thread on Dave's asking why someone fancies an MTV babe?