Job Discussion Forums

[Rinski]

Hi all :)

I've searched the forum, but i can't find an answer to what i want to know. i wonder if anyone can help me?

I am hoping to come to China in the next couple of months to teach with my partner. We don't have degrees, but have still been offered work. Does the school generally need to show the degree certificate to get the foreign experts permit? It seems to be a very grey area!

Thanks.

[MisterButtkins]

I know people with residence permits who have no degree. I'm not sure about foreign expert certificates though. I think it varies by province.

[johntpartee]

[jamesmollo]

No. but, some kind of documentation is required. Like a TEFL or TOESL, hell, could be a high school diploma!

[theincredibleegg]

For teaching English, you need a BA. However, there are cases where people have received a foreign expert certificate thanks to having an employer with good connections.

As with many other things in China - It depends!

[mr bedtime]

[ttorriel]

Such a piss-poor attitude that too many of you default to the "corrupt system and country" point of view.

With such a lame view, why even bother to live and breathe the corrupt communist air?

Despite what you think it's hardly as corrupt as you seem to want to make it.

[mr bedtime]

[Sinobear]

Q: Can you get a work permit & FRP w/out a degree?
A: Yes you can

Q: Is it legal?
A: No it's not (especially in BJ, Shanghai and GZ)

Q: Will I be caught and deported?
A: In the aforementioned 'Big 3', inspections can and do occur from time-to-time. If your school used connections to get you paperwork that you're not qualified for, you get booted and the school gets a fine (this usually occurs when the school does not pay 'tributes' to an official high enough up the chain).

Q: What about smaller cities?
A: Usually the FAO of the school nor the PSB and local labor bureau knows enough (or cares enough) about due process and regulations. I know of a beautiful small city full of friendly people whose schools routinely take on FTs - degreed or not - with only an L visa.

Q: What about working on an F visa?
A: Technically, an F visa is for business people looking to make contacts/contracts in China. You can 'get away' with working on an F visa SO LONG AS: 1) Your contract is for lecturing not teaching; 2) You are receiving a stipend (or living expenses) and not a salary; and 3) Make absolutely sure that you are paying taxes (if applicable) on the amount that you are earning.

Q: Sinobear! How in the *^%*&^ can you say that about an F visa?
A: The college that I work with regulary employs lecturers for contracts under 6 months. The college is a high-profile gov't school and thus every t must be crossed and every i dotted. F visas for contracts under 6 months are usually not a problem. I like to use the word "usually" in this case as, in China, the application of the letter of the law is ALWAYS up to the whim of the local officials.

Q: What are the drawbacks of not having a degree or working with a FEC/FRP?
A: Look up 'indentured servant' in the dictionary.


Do Enjoy!

[mr bedtime]

Sinobear, is your advice for z visas (lecturing vs. teaching etc.) meant to apply in the big 3 only and not in other cities?

I live in Chengdu, and as far as I know, many, possibly even most of FTs here hold a f visa (with some student visas thrown in).

This lets them act as free agents, hold several jobs or part time, and the demand for teachers is always there.

Obviously they have to pay for their own visas though.

One question about this- they are illegally signing teaching contracts and so are the schools. Is that what keeps the schools treating the teachers normally?

As far as I know, most established schools in Sichuan don't get visa inspections.

Though I know of one that has.

[Sinobear]

I cannot vouch for other locales. My experience is with GZ, BJ, and what I experienced in Fujian.

I, myself, worked for more than two years on an F visa with no problems. While I did so, I made sure that I was paying taxes legally.

It really is up to the local officials to decide when and how to apply the letter of the law. Your school, it's connections, events of national interest in your location, the weather, day of the week...all have a bearing on when, if, or how deep your trouble may be.

[mr bedtime]

What are some scenarios you have seen or heard about in Fujian, as far as z visa holders getting into problems?

thanks,


mr b

[Sinobear]

Mr B, I think you have the Z visa and F visa confused. The Z visa is for foreign nationals who have been offered employment in China. Once you qualify for the Z visa, and get it from the embassy (or from THE Chinese gov't visa office in HK), you have 30 days to enter the country (mainland China). Once you enter China, your FAO applies for your work permit (for teachers, this is the FEC) and then FRP (residence permit).
Once you are approved and in possession of the FEC/FRP, a Z visa is history.
Renewing your FRP is a simple yearly procedure if you are remaining/re-signing with the original, sponsoring school.
If you are not renewing, or leaving your sponsoring school, you are supposed to surrender your FEC to the issuing school. If another school, in-prvince or other province, is willing to take you on, then you can simply give the reference letter to the new school and they can reassign your paperwork and carry on as per normal.

If you pull a runner, or cannot get the reference letter (BTW: even the Chinese gov't stipulates that a letter should be given even if you are 'undesireable'...it's all in the wording (http://www.gz.gov.cn/vfs/subsite/JGIN7QPB-AZE4-2MTO-EA6G-R281E8V2SFJH/content/content.jsp?contentId=491758&catId=5832) you can exit the mainland (which means HK or Macau), pick up an L or F visa, re-enter and apply again.

As far as working on an F visa is concerned, it's all about the wording in your contract (lecturer vice teacher, stipend vice salary), you pay the required taxes, and keep a low profile.

I've never known anyone who had a problem "working" with an F visa...I have known people, however, who had problems when exiting China because it was known that they were making money, but not paying taxes.

I was in Fujian for six months. The FAO knew nothing of how to get a prospective FT a Z visa or FEC (FRPs didn't exist at the time).
I walked him through the procedure, and in the end, he simply said that it was much easier to take on transient FTs on an L visa because it wasn't like the PSB (who are buddy-buddy with the school officials) were going to be inspecting the school anyway.

I know this was an extremely long-winded post, I just tried to cover as many bases as I could.

I'll end this missive by saying this: anytime that you accept a position working under an F or L visa, it will be a crap-shoot. Maybe nothing untowards will happen and you'll spend a happy year doing what you want, or maybe you'll be deported three days after you arrive.

Do Enjoy!

[mr bedtime]

I don't have work visas and business visas confused ( I have had both), I just have this very stupid habit having of writing z when I mean f.
Sorry.

I am a bit confused by your post though. you have never known someone who had a problem working with an f visa...but

[Sinobear]

If you are caught working on an F visa, in a school that has no guanxi (connections) with the local PSB, then you can be deported. Simple as that...you are working illegally...same as being on an L visa. Illegal is illegal.

As I said, it's always a crap-shoot to work outside the normal perimeters. "You pays your money, you takes your chances."