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killian · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:03 am Post subject: when did taiwan become a country?

just wondering...when did taiwan become a country?

it was part of dynastic china. dynastic china ceded it away in perpetuity to imperial japan. for two generations, the people of taiwan spoke japanese and dressed as japanese. when japan lost her war of aggression in the pacific she was stripped of her territiories. the us and the allies took possession of taiwan. at this time, the chinese civl war was still on and the US wanted to wait to see who the winner was gonna be before sealing taiwan's fate. the US's boy in the civil war lost and the US 7th fleet ferried him and his on over to taiwan. ideally, they were to retake the mainland.

when was the "final fate" of taiwan ever decided by the entity that actually has possession: the US gov't?

following the legal treaty paper trail shows that taiwan is part of the US.

seems to me, the older folks (born during japanese times) and their descendents would have an arguement for the rights of japanese citizenship. an equally valid arguement could be made that all taiwanese today merit the rights and priviledges of everyone else born on american soil: full and total citizenship.

are americans in taiwan in a foreign country? maybe we should start exerting our US constitutional rights here.

Libertarian · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:57 am Post subject:

I think a better question would be when did it become part of the PRC as Beijing claims? You do make an excellent point about it being part of the US. Taiwan was given to Tokyo by the Treaty of Simonoseki, but was never returned to Beijing by any treaty. The Cairo and Potsdam declarations only gave CKS the right to accept Japan`s surrender in Taiwan and Vietnam. The San Francisco Peace Treaty also did not transfer sovereignty to Beijing from Tokyo, it only recognized that Tokyo gave up all claims to Formosa.

As many Taiwanese will say, the ROC government of CKS was an alien regime that was forced on Taiwan. Some would argue that Taiwan became a country when CKS died in 1975, some would say when they dropped the retake the mainland claim in 1987, while others again would argue that the transfer of power in 2000 could be the catalyst. Is Taiwan`s status in limbo? Of course it is. However, Taiwan has been a self governing de facto and de jure state which should take precedence over any outside claim on it.

Personally, I agree with Lee Teng Hui`s assertion that the ROC is dead and it`s time for the ROT to be born.

killian · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:43 am Post subject:

yeah, but...international law is done by treaties/pacts. what treaty/pact made taiwan anything but a loosely ruled but ruled nonetheless protectorate of the US?

Libertarian · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:44 am Post subject:

[quote="killian"]yeah, but...international law is done by treaties/pacts.

Libertarian · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:45 am Post subject:

[quote="Libertarian"]

Libertarian · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:46 am Post subject:

Libertarian · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:49 am Post subject:

I apologise for sending the same message 3 times.

jason_seeburn · Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Posts: 399 Location: Toronto

Aristotle · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1388 Location: Taiwan

Then the island belongs to the aboriginals. Does that mean Taiwan will be annexed by the Philippines as they are direct decedents of the aboriginal inhabitants?
Rules of occupation clearly state those who have the superior force occupy that territory.
The only way for Taiwan to become a real nation is for them to openly and honestly declare independence.
As the former president of the Republic of China, Lee Tung Hui said, "They have no balls!".
A.

killian · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:58 am Post subject:

mac arthur ordered CKS to accept the surrender of taiwan. the final resolution of taiwan's fate has yet to be decided. the KMT has in effect been squatting here for fifty years. squatters rights aren't recognized in int'l law.

taiwan is being held "in trust" by the US.

perhaps taiwanese should start pressing for the constitutional rights afforded to people born on american soil. if nothing else, it would clarify unca sammy's nefarious "strategic ambiguity" as i can't see how he wants 23 milion more citizens.

EOD · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 167 Location: Taiwan

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States and Military Occupation under the Law of War.

http://www.taiwanadvice.com/conventions/montconv.htm
Makes a very good case for the Military Occupation Scenario.
The real question is how to get the Chinese to accept rule of international law?

jason_seeburn · Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Posts: 399 Location: Toronto

jason_seeburn · Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Posts: 399 Location: Toronto

jason_seeburn · Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Posts: 399 Location: Toronto

killian · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject:

yes, i agree. the US doesn't really WANT taiwan. nonetheless, the US has legal possession of taiwan. the "taiwan relations act" the legislation by which the US arms taiwan is a DOMESTIC policy. generally speaking, the US houses don't do foreign policy. they are expressly forbidden from doing foreign policy. if taiwan is ANYTHING but an insular area under US protection how can the taiwan relations act be anything but illegal?

who benefits from the realization that taiwan is part of the US? not me. not you. ideally, the people who have been assigned and re-assigned three different nationalities in the past 100 years: chinese, japanese and american will be able to escape the cycle of being a piece of the puzzle of someone else's plans. give em the US passports and rights of residence. no proclamations need be made. gvie em all US passports and magically things'll resolve.

china won't go to military war with the US. china buys how much in US bonds per day? something to the tune of $800,000,000 per day (or about five and a half billions dollars worth a week). if you owned a bank, would you go to war with the guy who was your hugest customer?