Job Discussion Forums

[Marcoregano]

Liverpool is the city which gave us the Beatles.
Liverpool is the city where I was born.

I am a dunce at explaing grammar and can't find an easy explanation in Swan. How to explain this as easily as possible? Cheers.

[Celeste]

I wouldn't say the second sentence. I would use "in which" instead of where. You can say "Liverpool is where I was born." If you want to use a relative clause, you need to use a relative pronoun (which, that, who).

I haven't taught straight grammar for a while, but here is a website that may help:
http://www.usingenglish.com/articles/relative-pronoun.html

[Marcoregano]

Hi Celeste,

But....you can use 'where' to introduce relative clauses when referring to 'place'. According to Swan, 'where' here is the same as 'in which', so they can be used interchangeably.

[FGT]

I agree that "where" = "in which" but I wonder if other prepositions can also be used?

Most words that we think of as places can also be used to describe things, for example:

That's the reestaurant where I first met my best friend. (It's a place, I remember sitting at the table near the window etc)

That's the restaurant which my uncle bought. (It's a thing, he bought it as you would any commodity)

I think this can be applied across the board to cities, countries etc

[Celeste]

Well, there you go... I am losing my edge teaching all of these elementary school teachers and children. No one asks me hard questions anymore. I definitely defer to Swan.

[Lanza-Armonia]

Grammer? Gr-aa-emmm-ar?

What is this word one speaks of?

A Confused LA?

[Hogbear]

[FGT]

"which" and "that" ARE interchangeable in defining relative clauses, maybe that's why British people use them thus?

[Dr.J]

well, let's not start the US vs. British english thing ok?

that said, it is a little annoying when Word keeps telling me to use 'that'.
When does american english use 'which'? Only as a question?

There is a more interesting issue; what about when 'where' is used to refer to a situation rather than a place.

E.g. "It has gotten to the stage where I can't even remember where I left my keys."

I suppose it has something to do with "stage" or "point" referring in an abstract way to place.

[ls650]

[Dr.J]

So you can't say something like:

"I went to the toilet and then dropped my phone in it..."

then you pause

then continue, "which was pretty stupid wasn't it?"

I mean that way of talking must never arise! Fascinating. I use it all the time to continue a subject after a pause. Which is useful in my line of work. Do you say "and that's..." ?

[ls650]

[dmb]

Something I heard for the first time today.
'which'is always followed by a verb
and
'where' is always followed by a clause.
I haven't had time to mull this over yet and I'm not sure if this applies to both subject and object relative pronouns.
I'm knackered so I'm off for a little nap and I'll think about it later

[leeroy]

Call yourselves English Teachers?

We can only use "where" if the subject of the relative clause is different from that of the main clause, or in other words

We use "where"+another noun (typically a pronoun)

or

"which/that"+verb clause....

Liverpool is the city which gave us the beatles=

Liverpool is a city.
Liverpool gave us the beatles
(same subject, two clauses)

Liverpool is the city where I grew up=

Liverpool is a city.
I grew up there.
(different subjects)

Mind you I couldn't tell you how prepositions fit into all this...

[Hogbear]