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Mr TEFL
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 35
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 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: Nonnative English Speaking Teachers (of English) |
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Hi,
I'm really interested to generate a debate and find out if you have faced discrimination in Saudi because you are not a native speaker. If so, did that discrimination come from the students, other colleagues, admin of the school/college/uni and how did it manifest itself? Has it affected your career (promotion etc.):Is it an issue at interviews or when you send your CV, etc.?
Thanks in advance.
Mr TEFL |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Seems you just got out the TESOL Arabia, didnt you? There were some sessions on the topic.
Without digging down and deep into a philosophical debate over the extremely problematic definition of the native speaker in applied linguistics literature- There is rather a huge pile of papers written on this- and as a non-native myself, I personally believe that NNs teachers are underestimated and suffer greatly from the obnoxious hiring practices implemented in Saudi Arabia and in the gulf at large.
It is just not fair to judge someone based on your accent, pronunciation and fluency. The underpaid NNTs feel really bad especially when their NT colleague- who is relatively overpaid- come up to them and ask their help to explain a grammatical point. |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| freesoul wrote: |
Seems you just got out the TESOL Arabia, didnt you? There were some sessions on the topic.
Without digging down and deep into a philosophical debate over the extremely problematic definition of the native speaker in applied linguistics literature- There is rather a huge pile of papers written on this- and as a non-native myself, I personally believe that NNs teachers are underestimated and suffer greatly from the obnoxious hiring practices implemented in Saudi Arabia and in the gulf at large.
It is just not fair to judge someone based on your accent, pronunciation and fluency. The underpaid NNTs feel really bad especially when their NT colleague- who is relatively overpaid- come up to them and ask their help to explain a grammatical point. |
I was privileged (i.e. not paid) to edit a presentational paper on this subject. The acronym chosen was NESTs and NNESTeachers-- one must love acronyms to work in ESL, huh?
I know a teacher from a non-'white' or salary-commanding country that speaks three languages including informal and idiomatic English, and can lead a class . They had said, upon arrival, if the pay were unequal they were going home. They got paid.
Outside a union, it's the only assertion to be made.
Are NNs underestimated? I would think so. The paper emphasized the benefits of contrastive analysis and a supposition L2 learners and teachers "identify" and "sympathize". The supposition is likely true, but the author wasn't interested in noting students often lobby for teachers from regions of the world perceived as "authentically" English speaking.
I blame Fox. And instant messaging. And their lethal combination.
Organized thought may become as rare as medieval books.
NNs experienced a higher rate of employment after New York's bombing. NNs passed over for mediocre "native speakers" would be one result of a market beckoning western teachers to return.
It's a pickle and it's not fair.
A teacher from the world of finance explained salary discrepancy in terms of country of origin by standards of living: How much is earned abroad relative to what could be earned at home. How else does one attract a competent employee from their home? Fair?
Saudis are aware most teachers are temporary. It's a two year plan. Call it a Master's degree. . . in . . . Sociopolitically Controlled Chaos
But here's the thing: Early on I tell students how we speak and respond is judged harshly by power and given measure by others and ourselves. And I make fun of it. How sophistication is subtly asserted and elegance overlooked.
Either a speaker is familiar with English in terms only early development and continued immersion can produce, or they are not.
I think the real debate here is by what ratio can an ESL program be staffed by NNs and 'native speakers' and expect to remain contemporary.
My answer would allow for a range given the power of individuals and personality, but generally, as with most things, a parity.
But the money...is the debate about money? Are you seeking to dismantle the semantics of our vocation to demand a currency?
Are the terms of teaching English meaningless to assert...just a pile of papers? Are you judged for accent, pronunciation and fluency or valued by terms you find inconvenient? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It is just not fair to judge someone based on your accent, pronunciation and fluency. |
Seriously?
I would say that if you are hiring teachers of English, it is very fair to judge them on 'accent, pronunciation and fluency' - whether or not they are native speakers. I know I would not want an Arabic teacher who had poor pronunciation and was not fluent in the language. Would you?
| Quote: |
| The underpaid NNTs feel really bad especially when their NT colleague- who is relatively overpaid- |
On what are you basing your judgement of who is 'underpaid' or 'overpaid'? I dont' think many employers base their salary scales on who is and who is not a native speaker. These things are based on typical wages in the employee's home country - thus a non native speaker from Pakistan, for example, would get a lot less than a non-native speaker from, say, Germany. The latter would probably get the same as a native speaker from Britain, as average salaries in both countries are comparable.
I'm not neccessarily defending such hiring practices, but I don't think most employers discriminate against non-native speakers in terms of salary. |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Nonnative English Speaking Teachers (of English) |
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| Mr TEFL wrote: |
Hi,... and find out if you have faced discrimination..from the students, other colleagues, admin of the school/college/uni and how did it manifest itself? Has it affected your career (promotion etc.):Is it an issue at interviews or when you send your CV, etc.?
Thanks in advance.
Mr TEFL |
And be sure to place an asset into escrow for my retainer. |
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dutchman
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: visa |
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I have seen ads where they said native or near-native speakers are both welcome to apply, but due to unavailability of visas, people whose passports are from non-english speaking countries should not apply...
So I was wondering, if one has the relevant qualifications (MA in TESOl + DELTA), and years of experience, but he or she is from a non-english speaking country, (e.g. the Netherlands), is the chance of getting employed practically zero? Is there strictly a rule that the Kingdom does not issue visas for these people? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So I was wondering, if one has the relevant qualifications (MA in TESOl + DELTA), and years of experience, but he or she is from a non-english speaking country, (e.g. the Netherlands), is the chance of getting employed practically zero? Is there strictly a rule that the Kingdom does not issue visas for these people? |
No, not at all. I have known plenty of people hired from abroad as ESL teachers who are not native speakers of English, and who come from countries where even the often less than expert Saudi govt officials know English is not the native language. And yes, these people had full working visas.
The non-native speakers should not apply due to 'unavailability of visas' sounds a bit odd to me. |
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dutchman
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So I was wondering, if one has the relevant qualifications (MA in TESOl + DELTA), and years of experience, but he or she is from a non-english speaking country, (e.g. the Netherlands), is the chance of getting employed practically zero? Is there strictly a rule that the Kingdom does not issue visas for these people? |
No, not at all. I have known plenty of people hired from abroad as ESL teachers who are not native speakers of English, and who come from countries where even the often less than expert Saudi govt officials know English is not the native language. And yes, these people had full working visas.
The non-native speakers should not apply due to 'unavailability of visas' sounds a bit odd to me. |
Maybe those people were on a spousal visa or something...
Almost all ads say this...For example check the last sentence in this one:
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=21049
"NB: Due to the unavailability of visas for applicants from non-English-speaking countries, we will not be accepting applications from those who do not meet this condition."
I had once inquired about a vacancy posted by Bell, (KSU preparatory year) and in their response they said the following.
"I apologise for the delay in getting back to you but I was double checking with my colleagues about your situation. I must inform you that in the past we have not been successful in securing visas for candidates from the Netherlands" |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Dear dutchman,
Well, at the IPA in Riyadh, we had a good number (probably about 50% of a staff of about 35) of male teachers from countries where English is not the native language.
Regards,
John |
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dutchman
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Dear johnslat,
Thanks very much for your answer. But do you know if they simply got work visa by applying to a vacancy, or had the right to work because their spouse were in the Kingdom, or because they were married to a local or something? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Dear dutchman,
Males in Saudi are seldom, if ever, working there as "local hires." And you certainly won't find too many cases, if any, of non-Saudi males being married to Saudi women.
All the male teachers at the IPA from countries where English is not the native language were direct hires from outside the Kingdom.
Regards,
John |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Maybe those people were on a spousal visa or something... |
No - I specifically said that they were all on full working visas, and were recruited from abroad.
| Quote: |
| Almost all ads say this... |
No they don't. |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear dutchman,
Well, at the IPA in Riyadh, we had a good number (probably about 50% of a staff of about 35) of male teachers from countries where English is not the native language.
Regards,
John |
Dear John,
Of whom, how many are NOT Anglo-Saxon-looking teachers? |
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Citizenkane
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 234
Location: Xanadu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
"I apologise for the delay in getting back to you but I was double checking with my colleagues about your situation. I must inform you that in the past we have not been successful in securing visas for candidates from the Netherlands" |
I know for a fact that many of the teachers at KSU are not citizens of an English-speaking country and that they were hired from their native countries, not locally. Employers have 'block visas' for citizens of various countries, and it would seem that KSU don't have any for Dutch citizens - that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the fact that the Netherlands is not an English speaking country.
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| "NB: Due to the unavailability of visas for applicants from non-English-speaking countries, we will not be accepting applications from those who do not meet this condition." |
Had to laugh at that claim being made by Interlink. When I worked at YU, about half the male teachers were non-native speakers, and had been hired from their own countries. From what I can gather, the situation isn't that much different now. Maybe what they are trying to do is indicate a preference for native speakers, without sounding too 'discriminatory'? Interlink is a US company, after all. |
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dutchman
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Citizenkane wrote: |
I know for a fact that many of the teachers at KSU are not citizens of an English-speaking country and that they were hired from their native countries, not locally. Employers have 'block visas' for citizens of various countries, and it would seem that KSU don't have any for Dutch citizens - that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the fact that the Netherlands is not an English speaking country.
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That made it clear. Thanks! Do you know how often, if ever, employers get block visas for Dutch citizens? Or if I convince an employer that I am the right person, then is it possible for him or her to request a block visa for citizens of the Netherlands from the Ministry? |
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